Wikispecies:Village Pump

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39 (2016-12-04/2017-01-17) 40 (2017-01-18/2017-01-28)
41 (2017-01-29/2017-02-13) 42 (2017-02-14/ -)

Automating new page creation[edit]

We can signifitely accelerate our new page creation by harvesting data from the Catalogue of Life. It currently has 1,656,180 living and 12,852 extinct species in their records. It gets its data from 156 reliable databases.

Data of unavailable WS genera can be harvested in the form of the following lines:

Gastroserica haucki Ahrens, 2000 Species accepted name
Gastroserica herzi (Heyden, 1887) Species accepted name
Gastroserica higonia (Lewis, 1895) Species accepted name

Each line can be transformed into the following page (data taken from the 1st line):

== Taxonavigation ==

Species: ''[[Gastroserica haucki]]''

== Name ==

''Gastroserica haucki'' Ahrens, 2000

== Status ==

* Species accepted name.

Popular-level article on bird taxonomy[edit]

I figure this may interest some of you: (koavf)TCM 20:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

I saw this artical earlier from Facebook where it was shared by someone. Yes the ornithologists get somewhat pedantic. I also do not think taxonomists sdhould be in the game of dealing with common names, at least not in the same way as we deal with scientific names. Common names are made popular through usage, they should be determined by a bunch of people who probably have little to do with the species. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 23:32, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that in French, unlike in English, the IOU created the fr:Commission internationale des noms français des oiseaux, which has published standardized lists of names, most of which have been taken up wholly (as far as I know) by the french birdwatching community, so obviously taxonomist sometimes DO deal in common names. Circeus (talk) 21:40, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes they do, I just do not think they should. It is beyond the realm of taxonomy and has no set of rules to back up the decisions. Also as I said they creating names for species without local consultation with those who actually work with the species. Rather obnoxious actually. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 22:31, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Had already seen it; some interesting points but nothing new. @Faendalimas: - I fear you're contradicting yourself there, first "they should be determined by a bunch of people who probably have little to do with the species", and then conversely "creating names for species without local consultation with those who actually work with the species"; you are of course correct with the second, not the first ;-) Yes, taxonomists should be dealing with vernacular names: their formation works from formal species lists (like IOC, or BSBI) which are followed by field guide authors, from where the public pick them up. And yes, care is needed in choice of names; there are two simple rules to follow: 1 vernacular names should be taxonomically accurate (so as to help counter creationist / anti-evolutionary misinformation), and 2 subject to 1, should follow local native preference, to avoid the obnoxious cultural imperialism exhibited by some such as ITIS, USDA Plants, and the Clements bird list (see e.g. example here). - MPF (talk) 14:44, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Sorry yes I meant "should not" hence my apparent contradiction. Taxonomists and organisations of them, should not deal in vernacular names. They are irrelevant to taxonomy. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 15:53, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Though I'd disagree on the latter point - vernacular names derive from taxonomy, so taxonomists do hold a responsibility over their accuracy. As an example, in the past, Pseudopodoces humilis was thought to belong in Corvidae, and was called Hume's Ground Jay in English; subsequently it was found to be in Paridae, and was then renamed Ground Tit in English (with similar changes in other languages, e.g. Mésange de Hume in French, Tibetmeise in German, etc.), to indicate its correct taxonomic position. - MPF (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Eh probably due to the unusual level of involvement of bird watches compared to say the situation with snails. Geni (talk) 20:00, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Rather off topic, but in the late 1990's I actually went on a Finnish snail safari in the Åland Islands... :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:21, 1 April 2017 (UTC).

Vote for bot[edit]

I ask the community kindly to take a look on the changes done, and vote on the new bot MABot, which has a request to get bot flag. Dan Koehl (talk) 00:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

As the result of a user poll MABot was granted a trial period of seven days, and approved and given full bot status in March 29, 2017. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 10:46, 31 March 2017 (UTC).

Policy regarding biographies of living people[edit]

I have drafted Wikispecies:Biographies of living people. We should probably consider developing it further, I have been concerned for a while that we publish email addresses, without verification or checking for currency. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Personally I'd rather we did not actually list direct contact information. Normally we'd be linking to enough material (i.e.institutional pages, articles...) that the information, if they have made it available, can be recovered. Circeus (talk) 23:14, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you both. If we chose to list email addresses they must be current and correct, but in my opinion we shouldn't publish direct contact information at all. In either case a formal policy for biographies is a very good idea. Thank you for the initiative. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC).
My personal policy is never publish addresses or e-mails, only institutions where the author was working at the time of certain publication. Necessary initiative. Congrats.--Hector Bottai (talk) 02:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Myron William Kimnach[edit]

A case in point is Myron William Kimnach - a new editor just pointed out that we have dates of 1901-2001, while they met Kimnach in 2010 and (s)he was still writing in 2016. es.Wikipedia has a birth date of 1922. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:02, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


Would it be a good idea to include at least some of the more interesting name etymologies for species names? For example Crocodylus porosus is named from its remarkable porosity; if you pour a bucket of water over one, the water drains straight through it, rather than running down the sides. Thoughts? - MPF (talk) 00:02, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

"1 April". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:29, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 :-) MPF (talk) 13:28, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
And I suppose Agra vation Erwin, 1983 is a very aggravating beetle ??? Mariusm (talk) 13:38, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
The poor thing's aggravated because no-one's written its wikispecies page yet! MPF (talk) 14:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done ;-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 14:34, 1 April 2017 (UTC).
Thanks, Tommy on behalf of all the aggravated beetles around here! Mariusm (talk) 14:40, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Salticidus palidenrekensis[edit]

A fake? --Succu (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Commons image in deletion process, author is known from fake creations Burmeister (talk) 16:00, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Neither genus or species shows up in GBIF or Google Scholar. I seriously doubt its existence. Neferkheperre (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
I had my doubts about the claimed taxon early on, and marked the Salticidus palidenrekensis page with a "Validity disputed" template only a few hours after it was created. The Wikispecies IP editor is probably the same person as the logged in Commons user referred to by Burmeister. The IP address is located in Paraguay, and the logged in Commons user page is written entirely in Spanish, among other things mentioning Río Paraguay. Furthermore neither IP nor Commons user seem particularly familiar with the binominal nomenclature, both using leading caps for all parts of all taxon names (including sp. and ssp.) and never in italics. Compare the user page at Commons and the first version of the Salticidus palidenrekensis Wikispecies page for examples. In my opinion the page should be deleted. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 20:59, 2 April 2017 (UTC).
Done! --Franz Xaver (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Deleted at Wikidata too. --Succu (talk) 06:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
By the way, the spider possibly belongs to the genus Frigga (Salticidae), maybe Frigga pratensis. --Franz Xaver (talk) 08:22, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Page formatting[edit]

Something odd gone wrong with the formatting on this page? First paragraph of most new sections is in indented grey boxes with different font. Does it affect any other pages too? - MPF (talk) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

While archiving, User:MABot cut up a pump section (Automating new page creation) with the code words <pre><nowiki> right in the middle, causing undesirable display effects in the following pump sections. I think the cutting location of this bot is very weird... Mariusm (talk) 10:10, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Fixed that, but the pump section Automating new page creation remains cut up in the middle. Mariusm (talk) 10:12, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Puccinia hieracii var. (b.)[edit]

What to do with that page? Index Fungorum does not have such an entry. --Succu (talk) 05:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion, it can be deleted. Anyway, it is not a name under the code of nomenclature (ICN). --Franz Xaver (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Also has a 404 error on the reference link. Andyboorman (talk) 15:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, a Google search for the exact phrase "Puccinia hieracii var. (b.)" only renders two hits, namely the Wikispecies taxon page and this Village pump thread. I have deleted the page, and requested the referring Wikidata entry (Q21380025) to be deleted. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:18, 16 April 2017 (UTC).
Thx. --Succu (talk) 07:52, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Fixing dead links[edit]

A "404" reference link is mentioned in the section currently above this one. We could do with a bot like those used on Wikipedia, that finds such links and substitutes a URL at, where one exists. I will ask one of the bot operators at en.Wikipedia if they can assist, unless there are objections here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:49, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

A good idea according to me, since dead links are fairly common. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC).

Automated taxobox on Catalan Wikipedia[edit]

The Catalan Wikipedia now has a taxobox template: ca:Plantilla:Infotaula d'ésser viu that is populated using data from Wikidata. An example can be seen on: ca:Nautilus praepompilius. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. But it seems it doesn't work when Wikidata has multiple values for parent taxon. If Wikidata adds more parent taxa, articles using this template will see chunks of the taxonomic hierarchy disappear. Plantdrew (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Do you have an example? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:28, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: ca:Heteromeles arbutifolia for one; nothing between order and kingdom, the Wikidata item for the order (d:Q21895) has multiple parents. There are also (not surprisingly) problems when the hierarchy at Wikidata uses minor ranks and/or clades. Wikispecies, and Wikidata all seem to be using clades to some extent for gastropod classification between class and family; the Catalan article on ca:Partula calypso has nothing between family and class. And fungi aren't displaying division/phylum (see ca:Agaricus impudicus); I'm not sure what's causing that (maybe the taxobox expects phylum where Wikidata has division)? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plantdrew (talkcontribs) 16:13, 10 April 2017‎.
Thank you. I've let our Catalan Wikipedia colleagues know. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:20, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll try to check where the problem or problems could be. First, I think it could be due to some redundancies in the field P171 (Example). Second, we selected only some taxonomic ranks which, for example, we didn't include division. But it may be something else. Thanks for the input. Paucabot (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Further explanations in cawiki thread by Vriullop. Paucabot (talk) 09:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Sophie Lutterlough[edit]

A recent collaboration with the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History resulted in an article on their first African-American entomologist, Sophie Lutterlough. Apparently she "co-identified 40 type specimens" and "in 1979, a mite [Pygmephorus lutterloughae] was named in her honor". We have nothing on her, or the mite. Can anybody help me to fix that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:44, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia entry. There are also entries at Smithsonian's website. Neferkheperre (talk) 14:14, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. That's the one I linked to... Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:29, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Adding Subgenus to species names[edit]

User: PeterR isn't obeying the decision made a long time ago not to add the subgenus to the species names in the form of Genus (Subgenus) species but to leave it as Genus species. Adding the subgenus to the names causes many problems including name-duplicates, search difficulties etc. The subgenus is to be included in the hierarchy-ladder but not in the name itself. I worked hard in the past to get rid of the subgenus names, but now I'm not able to convince PeterR to stop adding them. We need to make a decision on how to handle this. Mariusm (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

@PeterR, Mariusm: As can be seen on his talk page, PeterR is claiming, the names would be invalid without the subgenus added. (I can hardly believe.) So, what is the zoological code telling on this matter? --Franz Xaver (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
If Wikispecies has more than article for the same species they are marked as Wikimedia duplicated page at Wikidata. --Succu (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2017 (UTC) PS: query. --Succu (talk) 21:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Tens of thousands of species are currently named at WS without their subgenus. Does PeterR propose to rename them all ? Mariusm (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
See the discussion here Mariusm (talk) 15:07, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I can't find anything definite in ICZN code, except that subgenera are recognized and treated. Customarily in literature they are rendered as "Genus (Subgenus) species", which must be dealt with as painlessly as possible here. Subgenera are frequently upgraded to full genera, necessitating changes of some type. Page titles of "Genus (Subgenus)" won't work, too much changing. Yesterday, I ran Zaragoza, 2017, which elevated three diverse subgenera of Chthonius to full genus. Being semi-helpful, I altered subgenera species lists, created taxon templates, and adjusted Chthonius species overview. When I started this, I re-checked and discovered about 100 of these species which were filled out as Chthonius without reference to subgenera. Most of today will now be spent correcting these now orphaned pages. There needs to be some sort of definite and consistent treatment of subgenera and species thereof. I have some ideas, let me get through fixing this, they will crystallize. Neferkheperre (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Article 6.1 of the ICZN code says: 6.1. Names of subgenera. The scientific name of a subgenus, when used with a binomen or trinomen, must be interpolated in parentheses between the generic name and the specific name; it is not counted as one of the words in the binomen or trinomen. It must begin with an upper-case letter. [my bold] Clearly the subgenus is considered optional and not mandatory.
  • Wikipidia article Subgenus says: In the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature, a subgeneric name can be used independently or included in a species name, in parentheses, placed between the generic name and the specific epithet: e.g. the tiger cowry of the Indo-Pacific, Cypraea (Cypraea) tigris Linnaeus, which belongs to the subgenus Cypraea of the genus Cypraea. However, it is not mandatory, or even customary, when giving the name of a species, to include the subgeneric name. [my bold]
The question is: Are Toledano & Schmidt the authors from Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai or Bembidion smetanai. The species label says Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai. Yes I have made a redirect from Bembidion smetanai to Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai, because some Bembidion species are transferred to Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya). If you add category Author taxa and category museum this have to be allways the original combination. I'm not afraid for a little bit work more, because there are thousands of species with subgenera in species.wikipedia.PeterR (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: No, sorry, this is not the way to act. This is anarchy, where anyone can do as he deems fit without considering the consensus. This is interfering with the work of others and causing unnecessary representation-conflicts. The species can be perfectly represented including the respective subgenus in the text but not in the page's name. The page's name must allways be Genus species and I'm asking you again to comply with the consensus and stop introducing page-names which include the subgenus. Mariusm (talk) 13:05, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: See for example Bembidion smetanai: You got: (1) In the hierarchy ladder there's "Subgenus: Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya)" and (2) in the NAME section there's "Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai Toledano & Schmidt, 2008". Why isn't it enough for you by way of representation that you're so eager to add the subgenus also to the page's name? Mariusm (talk) 13:18, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This is not an act. I follow fauna europaea see [[1]]. This side is created by 45 expert authors. I shall someone ask why they add species with subgenus and after which ICZN code. If we add with author taxa you have to do it after original combination, this discussion we had before. If we don't add after original describtions I stop with author taxa and museum. PeterR (talk) 09:16, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
  • My view is that we should list subgenera on the genus page and create subgenus pages. However, the species pages are best kept binomial. See the treatment of Polyommatus and Polyommatus (Polyommatus) to see what I mean. There is a big benefit to retaining binomial species pages, as this is how most people search for a particular taxon. Accassidy (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
      • @Accassidy: See [2]. Polyommatus (Polyommatus) icarus is valid after Fauna europaea. Who am I to discuss the information from 102 experts and I have hundreds of bulletins with original descriptions with subgenera. PeterR (talk) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
This is how I have been handling this. Neferkheperre (talk) 16:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
@Neferkheperre: @Accassidy: @PeterR: this is above all a question of guarding the integrity of WS. If we keep shifting between two name-representations, and bearing in mind that the majority of page-names here is rendered without subgenus, then the harm we'll do will be much greater then the benefit of adding the subgenus to the page's name. Keep in mind we're talking here only about the page's name and not about the page's contents. Mariusm (talk) 14:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC).
I'm sorry, but we talk here about the official name published by an author. Have he published with or without a subgenus. For me is this publication the author taxa name. In WS I find a lot of species with subgenera and a lot of genera with subgenera not addPeterR (talk) 06:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Under the code all sub- infra- supra- names are optional for one. You do not have to use them at all, though it is recommended in reviews. I have described subgenera, I do not expect people to use them, and I am the author. I would expect them to be used when it is relevant to do so. But generally not. A spacies name is a binomial as the code says the subgenus name is not part of the binomen. Names here should be binomials this is nomenclaturally correct. I agree with the concept of having pages for subgenera, please look at how I did the genus Elseya for an example. Note that yes for the nominotypical subgenus I did use Elseya (Elseya) for the page name, since I have to but this is not a genus page it is a subgenus page. The genus Elseya has its own page. From the perspective of the zoological code this is what should be done. Cheers, Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 19:14, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


Over ten years ago, Haplorhini was renamed to Haplorrhini with a redirect left behind, assumedly as an alternative spelling. For consistency, a case might be made to reverse this to make "Haplorrhini" the alternative and "Haplorhini" the main species page after reading why the en-Wiki article was renamed on its discussion page.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  22:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Note: This was recently corrected in Wiktionary.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  22:45, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

False information?[edit]

I have here a species with lectotype Ferrerianus biimpressus. The lectotype is all ways designated from the original combination, in this case Aphodius beiimpressus. If I look to this species it looks for me that the lectotype is from Ferrerianus biimpressus. In my opinion you have described after the lectotype: Lectotype Aphodius beiimpressus designated by Dellacasa, Dellacasa & Gordon, 2007: 3.

And this is the agreement between Mariusm and me. Diphaulacosoma bicolor and Phygasia bicolor. PeterR (talk) 12:38, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

@PeterR: The lectotype indeed bears the name of Aphodius biimpressus (which is thus inscribed on the label at the repository by the original researcher) but it is designated to serve Ferrerianus biimpressus which is the current accepted name. I see no reason to make a separate page for (the invalid) Aphodius biimpressus as you imply only to accommodate the lectotype... This seems to me an unnecessary overkill and overreaching pedantry. I don't consider the lectotype data to be false information as you state. Mariusm (talk) 15:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
What I understand is that the lectotype is designated for preservation of the original combination. PeterR (talk) 09:23, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
A museum-type labeled under its original combination which isn't the current accepted combination doesn't necessitate the creation of a separate page (for an invalid name) for the sole purpose of manifesting this fact. Mariusm (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2017 (UTC).
The original combination is the basic for all research. The new name is a result after this research and can later change in a other name after for instance DNA control. The original combination is the author taxa name. The new names are transferred by others. PeterR (talk) 10:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
A lectotype is set to prevent or remove ambiguity in the assignment of a name. It is done to preserve the nomen, not the binomen. Binomens are not nomenclatural issues they are taxonomic and hence beyond the code. It is not done to preserve the original designation, just the nomen. Also once a lectotype has been assigned, if done correctly, its new assignment is the designation to be used, what it was or labelled as is irrelevant and invalid, making a page for a binomen that no longer is valid is an invalid act in itself. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 19:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Arabidopsis or Cardaminopsis?[edit]

On the page for the genus Arabidopsis the link for Arabidopsis arenosa redirects to Cardaminopsis arenosa, however is not listed there as a synonym. Any botanist here who knows which combination is current and correct? –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:23, 22 April 2017 (UTC).

Arabidopsis is correct – see e.g. doi: 10.1199/tab.0001 or Euro+Med Plantbase. --Franz Xaver (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Thanks also to Andyboorman for updating the Arabidopsis arenosa page. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:39, 22 April 2017 (UTC).
You're welcome Andyboorman (talk) 15:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Pending changes necessary?[edit]

Most or some pages have been vandalized, like Hippopotamus amphibius, Haloquadratum walsbyi, Euphorbia leuconeura, Aphyocharax anisitsi, and some others, especially on the Main Page of Wikispecies. I wonder whether "pending changes"-like protection is necessary. Well... the backlogging can be potentially huge if PC is enacted. However, I figure that the community of the project is limited. I thought about taking this to admins' noticeboard, but I would like your thoughts first. --George Ho (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

You have to balance the positives and negatives. In this case, the negatives will certainly outweight any positives from enacting pending changes. Almost all edits are constructive and would take away our time from editing and creating pages just to vetting pages. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with OhanaUnited, cases of vandalism are relatively few and quickly dealt with. Andyboorman (talk) 08:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
That's my opinion as well. Vandalism is fairly uncommon and almost always dealt with within the hour, most often minutes. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC).

Accepted or Valid[edit]

What is the different between Accepted and Valid? PeterR (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The conceptual meaning is reciprocally matching yet Accepted has the inference of the species (name) being accepted as valid by the authorities' majority while Valid is a more ambiguous term, rearing the question of valid by whom?. Mariusm (talk) 10:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
This is clear for me now. So if I have a list from Fauna europaea with Taxonomic status: valid than it is an accepted name, like Polyommatus (Agrodiaetus) admetus. [3]. accepted by at least 102 authors. PeterR (talk) 10:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I would also suggest that, in botany anyway, to be Accepted requires a majority of authorities to be content in using a Valid name. Validity does not automatically assume acceptance or very rarely vice versa! Validity is a function of publication under relevant articles. Acceptance is what then happens out in the wild, so to speak. Just have a look at Corbichoniaceae for example. Andyboorman (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
As far as I see, there is less difference between "accepted" and "valid" in zoology. Being an "accepted" taxon depends on a consensus of experts/authorities, who accept a certain taxonomic concept, i.e. a circumscription of a taxon, as correct. For example, there is consensus, that a horse is different from a donkey, although they can be crossed. Given a certain circumscription of a taxon, according to the respective code only one name can be correct, which in zoological terminology is called "valid". In botany, as far as it concerns acceptance of a taxon, the situation is the same. However, the botanical code (ICN) uses the term "valid" in a sense different from zoology. According to Art. 6, "valid publication of names is publication in accordance with ....", which means, that "validly published names" in botany are more or less the same as "available names" in zoology. And the "valid" name of an accepted taxon in zoology would be the same as the "correct" name of an accepted taxon in botany. --Franz Xaver (talk) 13:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
To my mind, the latest publication which revises a taxon-status is considered accepted while no one else is disputing it in a subsequent publication. The latest publication wins can be safely used by us as our best tool to establish the acceptance of a taxon name validity. Mariusm (talk) 14:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
What Franz and Mariusm write is of course correct, but unfortunately sometimes things hit the buffers of the real world of botanists. Take Vachellia nilotica (L.) P.J.H.Hurter & Mabb. Mabberley's Pl.-Book 1021. (2008) circumscribed to replace Acacia nilotica (L.) Willd. ex Delile Fl. Aegypt. Illustr. 79; Desf. Tabl. Hort. Par. ed. II. 208. (1813) the type species of Acacia Mill. Gard. Dict. Abr. (ed. 4) vol. 1. (1754) s.l. when the genus was dismembered into 5 segregates. Now this circumscription is accepted by all authorities except botanists in Africa - see APD who are still unhappy about Australia getting Acacia s.s.! Andyboorman (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
If in Fauna europaea Polyommatus (Agrodiaetus) admetus status valid is Polyommatus admetus also valid? PeterR (talk) 06:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: If I understand Article 5 ("The scientific name of a species ... is a combination of two names (a binomen), the first being the generic name and the second being the specific name.") correctly, Polyommatus admetus clearly must be valid. Article 6 rules "The scientific name of a subgenus, when used with a binomen or trinomen, must be interpolated in parentheses between ..." This seems to be a rule applicable in the optional case, that someone wishes to indicate additionally the subgenus. Do I understand this correctly? I must admit, that the botanical code is more familiar to me. --Franz Xaver (talk) 18:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: the answer is a definitive yes - both Polyommatus (Agrodiaetus) admetus and Polyommatus admetus are valid representations for the species. Moreover, the majority of instances where the species is mentioned, it is mentioned as Polyommatus admetus and not as Polyommatus (Agrodiaetus) admetus. Mariusm (talk) 09:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: I agree with Mariusm above. Both are valid ways of expressing the taxon. However, I understand that we have agreed here to keep the binomial epithet for page names, but to include the subgenus (trinomial), if one has been established, in the Taxonavigation hierarchy. This will mean that web users making the most common Google search, for the binomial name, will always get an early hit, so will probably bring us more traffic. Accassidy (talk) 20:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC).
The new species with subgenera is for me the valid author taxa species and I make a redirect for the species without the subgenus. If Alan publish a new species as example Polyommatus (Agrodiaetus) mariusi, for me is this species valid and I make a redirect from Polyommatus mariusi to Plyommatus (Agrodiaetus) mariusi. All the problems I have is that we haven't define what the category: author taxa is. For me is the category: author taxa the original combination. For me that is not the transferred combination.PeterR (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: I regretfully must decline to support your practice. The easier and straightforward way (in zoology) for [[category: ''author name'' taxa]] is to use it with the current valid combinations only (and if so desired, with true-synonyms [which are not the results of comb. nov.]). This means that we'll get the valid names on the taxa-lists and not the original combinations. The alternative is more harder to implement and prone to errors and confusions. Since the original-combination-author (in zoology) remains the only one mentioned in conjunction with the binomial, the list obviously will not be a deviation from the normal name uses. All the needed information, including the original combination will be included in the taxon page itself. Mariusm (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
and @PeterR:, please make it the other way around: Make the binomial to be the main page and the trinomial to be the redirect, otherwise we'll struggle telling left from right. Mariusm (talk) 12:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
My last problem. If i have a bulletin with new synonymy and it is a species with subgenus, I never get a connection with this species. How to handle this? PeterR (talk) 06:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: Oh, it's very simple. Just write * ''[[Genus species|Genus (Subgenus) species]]'' and everything will fall into place. Mariusm (talk) 09:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
That is of course correct, and easy to do. For lists of subspecies in the Taxonavigation section I recommend using the {{Sgsps}} template instead of {{Sgsp}}. It will link to a species page with the name "Genus species", but displays as "G. (Subg.) species". –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 14:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC).
When you cut out all the word inflation its actually simple in zoology. Names go through two tests, first is available/ unavailable, to be available the name must meet the criteria of publication and declaration in the code, basically published appropriately have a type etc. If it is available it is then decided if it is valid or invalid, if valid it is the currently used name for a taxon, if invalid it is a synonym and will appear in the synonymy. Unavailable names are not in the synonymy they cannot be used and do not, for purposes of nomenclature, exist. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 19:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

The strategy discussion. The Cycle 2 will start on May 5[edit]

The first cycle of the Wikimedia movement strategy process recently concluded. During that period, we were discussing the main directions for the whole Wikimedia movement over the next 15 years. There are more than 1500 summary statements collected from the various communities, but unfortunately none from Wikispecies. The strategy facilitators and many volunteers have summarized the discussions of the previous month. A quantitative analysis of the statements will be posted on Meta for translation this week, alongside the report from the Berlin conference.

The second cycle will begin soon. It's set to begin on May 5 and run until May 31. During that period, you will be invited to dive into the main topics that emerged in the first cycle, discuss what they mean, which ones are the most important and why, and what their practical implications are. This work will be informed and complemented by research involving new voices that haven’t traditionally been included in strategy discussions, like readers, partners, and experts. Together, we will begin to make sense of all this information and organize it into a meaningful guiding document, which we will all collectively refine during the third and last cycle in June−July.

We want to help your community to be more engaged with the discussions in the next cycle. Now, we are looking for volunteers who could

  • tell us where to announce the start of the Cycle 2, and how to do that, so we could be sure the majority of your community is informed and has a chance to feel committed, and
  • facilitate the Cycle 2 discussions here, on Wikispecies.

We are looking forward to your feedback!

Base (WMF) and SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

It appears to me that you have found the best place to initiate discussion with contributors to WikiSpecies, right here. Accassidy (talk) 12:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Accassidy: thx for your response. What do you think, why there was no feedback to my previous message? Was it unclear? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@SGrabarczuk (WMF): Because the message was written like other WMF regular updates and people tuned out. And many of us already got used to not receiving any support from WMF and we somewhat became self reliant while WMF focused almost exclusively on its poster child, Wikipedia. Anyhow, it's too late to start now that it has already moved on to cycle 2. OhanaUnitedTalk page 07:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
@OhanaUnited: you're right, the messages were written by WMF staff (or contractors) and are after one fashion. This is justified to some extent. There isn't many WMF employees who know various communities personally, so they don't write personalized messages. Announcements are written once and sent globally to all, with little adjustments. On the other hand, I'm a Wikipedian, with different approach, that's why you can see the bullet points and bolded words. As for the timing, the movement strategy is about the movement, not about individual projects. You can join any time and add your feedback, concerns etc. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Gryllinae and taxobox templates[edit]

Please note that several of the insect genera pages listed under Gryllinae (especially within the Gryllini tribus) still uses the deprecated {{Taxobox}} template. The template should be removed from all Wikispecies pages, in favour of standard Wikispecies Taxonavigation syntax. Feel free to help out removing them if you like to. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 16:05, 27 April 2017 (UTC).

By the way the {{Taxobox}} template is currently used on just over 1,000 pages. A list of them all can be found here. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC).
For the majority of these pages it's simply a matter of finding in the page history Kheller's contribution and reverting it. Mariusm (talk) 07:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Ah, now I remember that we've already had this discussion, back in 2014. Thanks for the reminder! Unfortunately many of the Taxobox templates were added at the same time as Kheller created the actual taxon pages. In those cases simply reverting the edits wont cut it since his page creations are often good, with the exception of the Taxobox templates. Those taxon pages would have to be rewritten rather than reverted. The same goes for some 100 or so template pages which he created using the {{BibForm}} template. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC).

TOC's in Village Pump archives[edit]

I have noticed that about a handful of the Village Pump archives (for instance Archive 1 and Archive 26) doesn't have a table of contents ("TOC"), while most of them (for example Archive 2 and Archive 27) do have a TOC. Does anyone here know why this is different from archive to archive? As far as I can see there are no __NOTOC__ codes in any of them, which would otherwise explain the lack of a TOC. Since many of the archived VP pages are very long having a table of contents in all of them would increase legibility; it's also helpful when linking to old discussions and poll results. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC).

I looked to the first archive and noticed there has been included a template that uses __NOTOC__. I guess that is the reason why more archives don't have a TOC. QZanden (talk) 22:25, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
You're correct: in "Archive 1" it's the {{Animalia}} template which adds the NOTOC magic word. I'll go through them all and try to remedy the problem, of course without losing any data from the actual discussions. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 23:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC).
Yes check.svg Done. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 23:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC).