Wikispecies:Village Pump

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Welcome to the village pump of Wikispecies. This page is a place to ask questions or discuss the project. If you need an admin, please see the Administrators' Noticeboard. If you need to solicit feedback, see Request for Comment. Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar). Use the Wikispecies IRC channel for real-time chat.

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33 (2015-11-21/2015-12-31) 34 (2016-01-01/2016 - -)

Wikimania 2016: call for proposals is open![edit]

Dear Wikispecies users,
the call for proposals for Wikimania 2016 is open! All the members of the Wikimedia projects, researchers and observers are invited to propose a critical issue to be included in the programme of the conference, which will be held in Italy, in Esino Lario, from June 21 to 28.
Through this call we only accept what we call critical issues, i.e. proposals aiming at presenting problems, possible solutions and critical analysis about Wikimedia projects and activities in 18 minutes. These proposals do not need to target newbies, and they can assume attendees to already have a background knowledge on a topic (community, tech, outreach, policies...).
To submit a presentation, please refer to the Submissions page on the Wikimania 2016 website. Deadline for submitting proposals is 7th January 2016 and the selection of these proposals will be through a blind peer-reviewed process. Looking forward to your proposals. --Yiyi (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The deadline for the call for proposals for Wikimania 2016 has been moved on 17th January 2016, so you have 10 days to submit you proposal(s). To submit a presentation, please refer to the Submissions page on the Wikimania 2016 website. --Yiyi (talk) 09:38, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Discussion for Distinguished Author of main page[edit]

As we can see we need to update Distinguished Author time to time. lets make the specific time to change it. we can make template as like of Species of the month and change it through template after discussion you can see the example here. we can make the Category of the Distinguished Author‎ and a page of collection of the Distinguished Author‎ like Wikispecies:Species of the month and make the task easy.-BRPever (talk) 11:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree, good idea, go ahead! - MPF (talk) 11:50, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that is a good idea. I suggest we aim for changing the "Species of the month" template at or around the shift of every month, and rotate the "Distinguished author" at about the 15th every month. That way the main page will change more frequently, making it more interesting to the occasional visitor. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 19:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC).
Thank you for accepting my proposal.-BRPever (talk) 00:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #6—2015[edit]

Elitre (WMF), 00:06, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

List of viruses[edit]

Happy New Year 2016!
I'd suggest to delete List of viruses. It is outdated and doesn't contain any information, that couldn't be found in Virus. Opinions? --Murma174 (talk) 12:23, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I fully agree. Lists like those might be suitable for Wikipedia, but not here at Wikispecies. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 19:48, 1 January 2016 (UTC). PS. Happy New Year! –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 00:46, 2 January 2016 (UTC).
O.K. Deleted. --Murma174 (talk) 09:14, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

New formatting templates[edit]

I have created a couple of new formatting templates, namely {{fam}} and {{famlast}}. They are intended for listing familiae in the Taxonavigation section, and work in the same way as the {{sp}} and {{g}} templates (used for listing species and genera, respectively, together with {{splast}} and {{glast}}). Use them if you like. Please note that {{subfam}} and {{subfamlast}} templates for listing subfamiliae are already since long available.

Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:06, 4 January 2016 (UTC).

Thank you, that's helpful. --Murma174 (talk) 18:24, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Agreed very helpful, thanks Andyboorman (talk) 20:41, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Now {{ordo}} and {{ordolast}} templates are available as well, intended for ordines. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC).

Author names[edit]

Who can help me with the full author names for R. Vergely and P. Willien. Both French entomologists. PeterR (talk) 18:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Can we get a few publication references to get the sleuthing started? Circeus (talk) 06:26, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I only found this reference, but no author information. --Murma174 (talk) 09:09, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
They have described Parnassius mnemosyne rencurelensis as a new subspecies in Entomops, 1972, 4(26): 37-38. PeterR (talk) 09:15, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I haven't found anything regarding "R. Vergely", but "P. Willien" is probably Pierre Willien, French entomologist specialised in Erebia and Parnassius. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 20:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC).
Thanks, but have someone connection with french wikipedia to find out? PeterR (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


Do we have a policy regarding cultivars? I added one to Agapanthus africanus. Does it go beyond the scope of Wikispecies? --Murma174 (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, cultivars are not taxonomic entities per se. Plus they're regulated by an entirely separate nomenclatural code. My instinct is to say they don't belong any more than dog breeds do unless they have a name under the ICN. Circeus (talk) 06:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
It can be argued that cultivars can be a taxon - culton, but that is stretching things somewhat. They are regulated by the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP) and their names will not appear in IPNI or any source that deals with the taxonomy, classification or nomenclature of naturally occurring plants. In addition, many cultivar names now have the status of "trade names" and patents and have their own registrations - International Cultivar Registration Authorities (ICRAs). It is a vexed area, as there is considerable money to be made and the breeder of a cultivar has intellectual property rights. There is also a mass of names that arise over tiny differences. An area fraught with problems that is best left to the RHS and other sites. I always assume that WS deals with natural combinations whether varieties or nothospecies/genera. Andyboorman (talk) 17:14, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't think we have an actual policy regarding cultivars (though we should!) however the matter is on the table quite frequently. Personally I think that cultivars (and breeds) are very much out of scope of Wikispecies, and fully agree with Andyboormans' view. Taxon ranks such as varietas and forma are of course okay though, however only in botany. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 20:30, 11 January 2016 (UTC).
Good arguments, Andyboorman. I reverted my edits. --Murma174 (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
+1 for excluding cultivars. As an aside, also try to avoid using photos of cultivars to illustrate WS pages, as they are not typical of the taxon involved (including often being of hybrid origin, or [as in the case of Agapanthus africanus[1]] very commonly misidentified); best, where available on Commons, to use photos taken of the taxon in its native environment. Sadly, Commons doesn't appear to have a reliable image of Agapanthus africanus at all. - MPF (talk) 10:35, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
I am happy with that. Cultivars should be excluded. Personally, I feel some reservation against ornamental plants in general. (1) The demand for ornamental plants is one of the more important drivers of the introduction of organisms, that later turn out to be invasive. (2) Ornamentals distract attention from the "wild" nature. That's maybe the reason, that Commons has masses of photos of ornamentals, but often only few from wild plants. By the way, it can be a problem for the public acceptance of nature conservation, when people in their mind draw a line between valuable and usefull "nature" (i.e. gardens, cultivated fields) and worthless (or even dangerous) "wild" nature. Anyway, there is no such sharp dividing line. --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
"By the way, ... and worthless (or even dangerous) "wild" nature" — I'd say it's the reverse, at least for many people (me included!), that wild = valuable and cultivated = worthless ;-) That's why there are so few photos of wild plants on Commons, they are valuable photos which cost a lot of money to take, so not many people are willing to release them with a CC license. - MPF (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Perceptions are different. What I meant can be illustrated by two sentences from an Austrian politician, expressed during discussions resulting in en:Occupation of the Hainburger Au and finally in establishment of the en:Danube-Auen National Park. The president of the federation of the trade unions in 1984 said [2]: "Der Auwald ist kein Wald, sondern ein Wildwuchs. Wenn wir ihn wegreißen, werden wir das begrünen und neu pflanzen, dann wird das Bild schöner sein." This can be translated as "The floodplain forest is no forest, but uncontrolled growth. When we rip it off, we will revegetate and replant it, then the view will be more beautiful." --Franz Xaver (talk) 14:00, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Which is more beautiful: a wild patch of forest or a highly manicured Japanese garden? Considering the aesthetic values the answer is obvious, but would you trade the one for the other? For this the answer should be no. Cultivars have a place as long as they don't displace the wild varieties. What I'm concerned about is when cultivars aren't produced by means of selection or hybridization but by genetic engineering. Mariusm (talk) 06:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
I do not have a problem with gardens and cultivars as long as they support biodiversity as well as aesthetics! But I am also a fan of Japanese gardens. Andyboorman (talk) 11:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't make much difference how cultivars are created (selection, hybridisation, or GM) but they are – by being mass-produced identical clones – the antithesis of biodiversity. You could instead call them bio-uniformity or biomonotony ;-) - MPF (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Selection and hybridization are natural processes as well as breeders' tools. They unfold naturally in response to environmental conditions or stresses — albeit over much longer periods. On the other hand GM entails inserting selected foreign genes, even an insect gene into a plant genome — a process which can never occur naturally. That's why we must consider the two methods in different terms. Mariusm (talk) 08:47, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

How to create a page with title "Weed"?[edit]

Because I found a second author name which has in part the name "Weed" I tried to create a disambig page with subject "Weed", and failed. I could only choose Henry Weed Fowler but could not create a page Weed. So I included the word in two brackets in a test page and learned, that I do not have permission to create this page, because it was deleted once, in case of vandalism. Well, I think it would be good now, to have it as a disambig page to choose between Henry Weed Fowler and Walter Harvey Weed, III..--Haps (talk) 10:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

As far as I see, it was not only deleted, but moreover Thorpe has protected indefinitly the empty page. Probably, someone should remove the protection? --Franz Xaver (talk) 10:07, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
@Haps: Hi Haps, I changed the protection status one step down from 'admins only' to 'registered users'. You should be able now to create the page. --Murma174 (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
All right, it worked! Thanks Murma174--Haps (talk) 12:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Problems could have originally happened from vandalism. "Weed" is US colloquial term for marijuana in very common use now. Neferkheperre (talk) 14:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your information, Neferkheperre. In case of vandalism we can protect it again. --Murma174 (talk) 15:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I have moved the "Walter Weed" page to Walter Harvey Weed, III (without the full stop at the end). Do we have any more information regarding him, like nationality, years of birth and death, and such? Or at least some authored taxa. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 07:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC).

Wikidata & GLAM 'down under'[edit]

In February, I'm undertaking a three-week tour of Australia, giving talks about Wikidata, and Wikipedia's GLAM collaborations. Do join us if you can, and please invite your Wikimedia, OpenData, GLAM or OpenStreetMap contacts in Australia to come along. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:37, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

The tour has now been extended to Indonesia. I'll be in Jakarta from 25-28 Feb. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Sounds great! I wont be joining in from Sweden though... :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 10:17, 26 January 2016 (UTC).
I'd be happy to come and give a talk there, too... Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


Like spoiled dinner, User @ has returned, vandalising several taxon pages with drivel and reverting legitimate edits. @Tommy Kronkvist: had blocked it last September for 1 week. When I got wind of it, its edits had been reverted by sysops. I resumed block for 30 days. This one appears to be incorrigible, as this at least second time. Neferkheperre (talk) 19:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, @Neferkheperre: I took the liberty of extending the block to three months, since we really don't need those kinds of edits here… –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 05:48, 23 January 2016 (UTC).

Malfunctioning Edit button[edit]

Could someone please have a second look at Saccharomyces cerevisiae ?
The Edit button (right of the headlines) looks strange and doesn't work (for me). --Murma174 (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I noticed some days ago the same phenomenon in other pages: The edit button for the sections within the page looked strange. In this case now, it disappeared for me after having saved the complete page without having done any changes. --Franz Xaver (talk) 18:31, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it's OK now. Danke! --Murma174 (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Armenian language code[edit]

Hello, The hy code for Armenian just gives a series of squares, anybody have a clue how to fix this? ThanksAndyboorman (talk) 15:49, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

@Andyboorman: Install (on your device) the relevant font. See: en:Help:Multilingual support#Armenian. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:37, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks good to know it was me! Andyboorman (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2016 (UTC)


The modern classification of this family is based upon a clade based approach down to the genera (Legume Phylogeny Research Group, 2013),which does not fit with the traditional tribal Linnean classification found on WS. The Legumes of the World does offer a taxonomic approach on their site, which attempts to merge classical and phylogenetic approaches, but this is a work in progress in some areas. Differences between LPRG, LOWO and WS occur at the tribal and sub-tribal levels. GRIN is out of date (last updates 2003) and should not really be followed. I suggest we follow Legumes of the World on WS. Comments and advice please, as the current WS classification below the well accepted subfamilies seems a mess particularly for Faboideae a name we ought retain over Papilionoideae, IMO. Andyboorman (talk) 09:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, at the moment any formal suprageneric classification in the Fabaceae is only possible, when a lot of paraphyletic and polyphyletic taxa is accepted. Many taxa that would be required for a formal classification following recent phylogenetic knowledge still are awaiting description/establishment. Moreover, also circumscription of some important genera, as Caesalpinia and Bauhinia, is in a state of change. As I understand the Kew classification, it perpetuates existing older non-phylogenetic classifications. OK, so far. Anyway, in my opinion the only possiblity we have is to follow the Kew classification, as long as there does not exist any better one. One point that is in favor of the Kew classification is the fact, that many (sub)recent publications are cited with each suprageneric taxon.
Anyway, in the long run, Caesalpinioideae certainly will be split up. Its general acceptance at the moment is only with reservations, as it certainly is paraphyletic. --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
My thoughts exactly. We have the same problem with suprageneric classification of Apiaceae - work in progress as well. Andyboorman (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


Self-advertising of User:Simonny. I think this page should be deleted (including d:Q21447464).--Succu (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done OhanaUnitedTalk page 07:17, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
@Succu: In the future, please use the {{Delete}} template for deletion requests. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:04, 31 January 2016 (UTC).


What to do with this? Wrong language? What is it about? --Succu (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Someone's test page; no WS-relevant content. I've deleted it. - MPF (talk) 21:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Patrolling activity[edit]


Sometimes theres quite a large number of pages that needs patrolling, but only a limited number of users who patrol those edited files.

Created files and edits by IP-addresses and users who have not yet been given autopatrolled user rights, need to be patrolled and checked that they follow Wikispecies rules and standards.

Those files have a red ! in front of them on the list at Special:RecentChanges.

At the bottom right corner those files have a link, [Mark as patrolled], which if the file is correct, can be clicked by an Admin or Patroller so the file gets patrolled.

The easiest and fastest way of patrolling a number if files is through the RTRC extension. To the left, under "Tools" you find the link to RTRC. After clicking that link a new window will open, where you easily can configure your patrolling. Just check the box "unpatrolled only" and click the blue button "apply". The unpatrolled files will now show in a list where you can click each one and if the edit was correct, click "mark as patrolled", and that file will disappear from the list.

Please consider carrying out daily patrols of new pages and edits made by users who are not autopatrolled.

Not yet a Patroller?[edit]

Theres always a need of patrolling files edited by unregistered users, and if you think you have a good understanding of Wikispecies policies and guidelines and want to help out with patrolling, you can request patrol rights at Patroller.

Dan Koehl (talk) 21:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this up. Together with about a handful of other users I try to help out, but it would certainly be welcome if more users did some patrolling as well. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 00:46, 9 February 2016 (UTC).
Thanks to Cgt on danish Wp, we can now see statistics on patrolling: Dan Koehl (talk) 19:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Inline en-WP link[edit]

In Zika virus I installed an inline link to Zika Forest (English Wikipedia). One could argue, why not to the French or Russian version? - Keep or delete? --Murma174 (talk) 13:14, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion: delete. Wikispecies is not a general encyclopedia, and as far as I'm concerned all inline links to any language version of Wikipedia should be removed, unless served by Wikidata. The exception would be inline Wikipedia links on our help- and policy pages, and Wikimedia Commons related templates. But Wikipedia links on taxon or author pages? No please, not according to me. The scope of Wikispecies is to be a database describing nomenclature and taxonomy, and nothing much else.
I think, you are right, and - up to now - noone was backing inline links to WP. So I deleted the link now. In WPs it is also a no-go to set inline-links from one WP to another WP-version. --Murma174 (talk) 07:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

(new topic)

Also, while not strictly forbidden, as far as I know there is no consensus regarding wether to list etymological data at all? The etymology of a taxon name is – with very rare exceptions – never directly related to the nomenclature, taxonomy or systematics, and therefore of doubtful use at Wikispecies.
Again, this is of course my opinion, and as always open for debate. Best regards, Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 10:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC).
While not "officially" permitted, I think that (1) etymology and (2) distribution are two items which should be incorporated in WS. There are already some users who routinely add these items to their pages and I think these two items add a considerable value to WS. As for inline links, I would leave them out. Mariusm (talk) 11:15, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Etymology can be rather complicated to explain, although sometimes it is a very simple story. Anyway, in order to avoid that longer explanations in whatever language would be neccessary here in WS, in my opinion, etymology should not be included in WS articles. Moreover, it might require some references that go beyond the scope of WS. In this case here, what is titled "etymology", in plant or animal articles probably would be named "type locality". I don't know, if there exists something as "nomenclatural types" in virology?
No, the nomenclature in virology appears a little arbitrary. In several cases the species within a genus just get numbers (Alphapapillomavirus), in some cases the virologists must have smoked (Che8likevirus), a geographical indication (Zika virus) isn't found very often. In most cases the name derives from the host and the impact (Begomovirus). --Murma174 (talk) 17:54, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Anyway, linking to the respective wikispecies articles, would be easier (by wikidata), if we had articles on localities here at WS. I just had the idea, that possibly it should be good thing to have short articles on (some) place names. Many authors, especially in older times, described a lot of taxa from a more or less restricted area, and often the name of the place (and also state/country borders) have changed since then, i.e. since colonial times. These articles, as I imagine them, would not include a description of that area. However, there would be coordinates, historical and actual place names, a list of authors who attributed (sometimes in error) their species to this place/area, a list of collectors and if possible date/year when they collected in this area, and a list of species who have their type locality in this area/place. Some examples of such places that may deserve such articles: (1) There are many species described by different authors from "Ega", which today is named Tefé (in Amazonian Brazil). (2) The island Phú Quốc, now belonging to Vietnam, but in former times to Cambodia, is the type locality for a number of species. Some erroneous country records for Cambodia are based on the fact that the protoloque presents outdated information - see e.g. protoloque and Flora of Thailand draft of Xantonnea quocensis. Articles on these localities would link both the actual name and (via redirect) the historic name/orthography to the same article. Moreover, such articles should reveal outdated country information given in the protoloque. Opinions? --Franz Xaver (talk) 17:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Franz Xaver: can you be more specific? What would such locality articles include? Can you give an example of such an article? And what do you refer to when you say "locality"? It can be anything from a country to a mountain to a city to a continent. Mariusm (talk) 05:44, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
@Mariusm: I have given two examples of possible candidates for such articles. It would be about places of smaller size, not country nor continent. As far as I know, such kind of articles does not yet exist. So, I can not point to some examples. --Franz Xaver (talk) 08:42, 11 February 2016 (UTC)