Wikispecies:Village Pump

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Welcome to the village pump of Wikispecies. This page is a place to ask questions or discuss the project. If you need an admin, please see the Administrators' Noticeboard. If you need to solicit feedback, see Request for Comment. Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar). Use the Wikispecies IRC channel for real-time chat.

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if you use the title box, you don't need to put a title in the body
1 (2004-09-21/2005-01-05) 2 (2005-01-05/2005-08-23)
3 (2005-08-24/2005-12-31) 4 (2006-01-01/2005-05-31)
5 (2006-06-01/2006-12-16) 6 (2006-12-17/2006-12-31)
7 (2007-01-01/2007-02-28) 8 (2007-03-01/2007-04-30)
9 (2007-05-01/2007-08-31) 10 (2007-09-01/2007-10-31)
11 (2007-11-01/2007-12-31) 12 (2008-01-01/2008-02-28)
13 (2008-03-01/2008-04-28) 14 (2008-04-29/2008-06-30)
15 (2008-07-01/2008-09-30) 16 (2008-10-01/2008-12-25)
17 (2008-12-26/2009-02-28) 18 (2009-03-01/2009-06-30)
19 (2009-07-01/2009-12-31) 20 (2010-01-01/2010-06-30)
21 (2010-07-01/2010-12-31) 22 (2011-01-01/2011-06-30)
23 (2011-07-01/2011-12-31) 24 (2012-01-01/2012-12-31)
25 (2013-01-01/2013-12-31) 26 (2014-01-01/2014-12-31)
27 (2015-01-01/2015-01-31) 28 (2015-02-01/2015-02-28)
29 (2015-02-28/2015-04-29) 30 (2015-04-29/2015-07-19)
31 (2015-07-19/2015-09-23) 32 (2015-09-23/2015-11-21)
33 (2015-11-21/2015-12-31) 34 (2016-01-01/2016-04-17)
35 (2016-03-22/2016-05-01) 36 (2016-05-01/2016-07-12)
37 (2016-07-13/2016-09-30) 38 (2016-10-01/2016-12-04)
39 (2016-12-04/2017-01-17) 40 (2017-01-18/2017-01-28)
41 (2017-01-29/2017-02-13) 42 (2017-02-14/ -)


{{Ale}} is unused, undiscussed, and undocumented. Does it serve any purpose? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:43, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't see any sense in keeping it. It looks like Author template (category:Author templates), which are at best redundant. They are from older ages, and do not use our present accepted naming format. They mostly direct to author pages. Occasionally, they have interfered with taxon pages. This needs to be evaluated, as there are over 3000 of these. Neferkheperre (talk) 20:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Deleted. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:07, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Unused templates[edit]

Further to the above, there are thousands of templates listed at Special:UnusedTemplates; is there any reason not to start deleting them, beginning with unused author-name templates? We'd also need to keep any /doc templates listed there. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

IMO do not start with the author pages, as they could be waiting for the relevant taxon pages and associated references to be created or simply they could be used on stubs and semi-stubs. A lot of the taxon templates could be disambigs, orphans, synonyms or again waiting for a taxon page to be created. Repository templates are not a delete category either. This whole task will need the help of taxonomists I feel. It is most definitely not a task for a bot. WS has a lot of these OMG moments! Regards Andyboorman (talk) 11:09, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
This is indeed a mess, and will take some time to wade through. As for the author templates (whether used or not) many of them are also malformed, using HTML and CSS instead of proper wiki code. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 11:21, 15 May 2017 (UTC).
Who mentioned a bot? Which unused templates would you delete? If templates are used on stubs and semi-stubs, they will not show on the above page, as "unused". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:26, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I did not write that templates are being used on stubs and semi-stubs. Sorry what I meant is that they may have a place on incomplete taxon pages. Andyboorman (talk) 11:34, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Do you mean they could have potential use on stubs in the future? How long after creation should we keep such templates? Indefinitely? And, again: Which unused templates would you delete? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:37, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Look I am not trying to be awkward, but for example, I looked at A.Fleischm. and found that I could use it by enhancing the existing page Nepenthes flava. However, I was happy to delete Aizoön, as the actual taxon page has been previously redirected. Two down a few thousand to go! I guess this is great and valuable tidy up project. Andyboorman (talk) 15:15, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Many templates from this lists are reference templates, which simply have to be added to the respective author pages, e.g. {{Bigelow, 1967}}. After having done this, they will no longer show up as unused. IMO it is best to start with this kind of templates. --Franz Xaver (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@Andyboorman: Anyway, {{A.Fleischm.}} still is unused, as {{a|A.Fleischm.}} actually is working with the redirect page A.Fleischm. and not with the template. Probably this kind of author templates can be deleted altogether, but in some cases creation of a redirect page might be necessary before. --Franz Xaver (talk) 15:27, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Franz Xaver Too true! Andyboorman (talk) 15:32, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@Franz Xaver: So you would add {{Bigelow, 1967}} to Robert S. Bigelow? How? - Please can you do so now, so that it can be used as an example for others? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:26, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: Done. Regards --Franz Xaver (talk) 16:31, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Is there any reason that such content needs to be in a template (presumably, it will only ever be used on that one page?), rather then entered directly? Either way, I think it would be worth having a bot scan Special:UnusedTemplates for similar cases, and then either i) applying them or ii) writing a list for human attention. Afterwards, if agreed, such templates could be "Subst:-ituted". Does anyone have a bot that could be approved to do such a task? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:40, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: Of course, the template {{Bigelow, 1967}} can be used in many taxon pages, probably in most pages on grasshoppers from New Zealand. Similarly, most other reference templates are to be used on more than one page. That's the reason, why these are templates. --Franz Xaver (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
And I did not say you are trying to be awkward. I simply asked you what you meant, since your first statement was not clear; and asked you a second time, "Which unused templates would you delete?", since you did not answer the first time (and I asked that, because you gave a list of types of template which you think we should not delete). And indeed, you have not yet answered that question. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:22, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry I really do not have time to trawl through unused templates for possible deletes. I was just pointing out a few possible pitfalls given your original post. Andyboorman (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I found these templates {{Btname}}, {{At}}, {{2015sp}}, {{2014sp}}, {{X1}} unused, undocumented and with apparently no use. Possible candidates to delete! Burmeister (talk) 17:33, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree. However, the list also includes a bunch of template documentation pages which actually are in use. For instance {{Boddaert, 1785/doc}} which really isn't a template in its own right, but the information ("help") subpage of the {{Boddaert, 1785}} reference template. These /doc pages should of course be kept (unless truly unused). –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:07, 15 May 2017 (UTC).
Hence "We'd also need to keep any /doc templates listed there." in my original post. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:35, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. I've deleted the first. The last is provided for use as a sandbox. And the rest are labelled as being for substitution only, so I wouldn't expect any uses. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I've deleted the rest – and their documentation subpages where available – with the exception of the {{X1}} "sandbox" template. Apart from being mentioned here at VP they were all unused. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC).

Let me ask another question: how long should we keep unused templates, before deleting them? And another: what purpose does, for example {{Ampelosicyinae}} serve, when it duplicates Ampelosicyinae? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:17, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral Please do not forget that some templates are always used by substituting them. But if you use a substituted template, it will not appear in the list of linking to. QZanden (talk) 13:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
As discussed in my reply to Burmeister, above, you mean? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:27, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
How long is a piece of string? Each unused template should be treated on it own merits or lack of them. As to your second question, in my view the taxon page Ampelosicyinae was poorly constructed in the first place. Now the template has value and is used. This class of unused template can be dealt with by page edits. We like to use templates in this way so that if classification changes it can be dealt with quickly and simply. Andyboorman (talk) 20:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, {{Ampelosicyinae}} is now used, because you've just deployed it. But you told us above, that you "really do not have time to trawl through unused templates". So how to you envision the issue of these thousands of unused templates being resolved? Meanwhile since you've removed my last example; here is another: {{Adamietta}} duplicates Sulcospira, to which Adamietta redirects, apart from using Genus: ''[[Adamietta]]''. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Adamietta was synonymised within Sulcospira; the page was redirected, but the template was forgotten. I think in these cases the template could be deleted without prejudice for WS. If Adamietta was resurrected in future, the template always can be restored to be used again. Burmeister (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
@Burmeister: Thank you. Is there a programmatic way to detect such templates? Maybe someone could draw up a list? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:11, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
I very regularly find these templates waiting around to be used when I undertake my edits and updates. I think we are talking at cross purposes. I am seeing templates that could be useful, for example those that could/should link to a taxon and must not be deleted until evaluated or used. However, I cannot comment on authors as I am not an author geek. In other words I will be helping out through my taxon page creations, edits and updates. However, you still seem to see all used templates as the same entity, but of course it would be great if there was a sort program, but my skill set is elsewhere. Sorry Andyboorman (talk) 11:14, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
"you still seem to see all used templates as the same entity" This is patently untrue, as should be obvious from even a brief reading of this short section. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry if I offended you - this refers to the "how long should we keep unused templates" as, in my opinion, this is a question with no blanket answer, but you have asked it a couple of times as if there could be one answer. Hopefully this helps. Andyboorman (talk) 14:31, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure our colleagues are capable of framing an answer in the manner of "two months in the case of authors, but a year in the case of a taxon", or whatever. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:39, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Distinguished author on the Main page: criteria?[edit]

I was just wondering what the criteria or rationale is for selecting a "Distinguished author" and featuring him or her on the Main page. Is there a voting process? Is it arbitrary? What makes them distinguished? I see little correlation with the quality/completeness of the author's Wikispecies page (compare Francesco Redi and Mary Agnes Chase to Johan Christian Fabricius) and their selection. I'd assume we'd want to highlight the best of the best, similar to highlighting featured articles on Wikipedia's main page, to maximize usefulness to readers, and inspire greater interaction with Wikispecies. -Animalparty (talk) 19:03, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I would change Distinguished author to Featured author, distinguished being a blurry term to use. Mariusm (talk) 04:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
I think a voting/discussion process similar to In the news/Candidates or Good article nominations would aid in the selection/promotion of quality and useful content. Criteria to consider could be: quality of author's article on Wikipedia (comprehensive biographies favored over stubs); relative completeness of Wikispecies page (e.g. more than a handful of named taxa in "Category:Joe Naturalist taxa", and a fairly complete list of at least major taxonomic works); and perhaps timeliness corresponding to significant dates (e.g. Joe Naturalist is featured during the month of the 100th or 150th anniversary of his birth, death, major publication, or other significant milestone). @Tommy Kronkvist:: I see you have been active in distinguished authors templates. Any comments on criteria, and/or ways to make the selection process more transparent? -Animalparty (talk) 05:01, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I assume we are keeping this to authors who are deceased, avoiding Biography of Living Persons issues, I would suggest we figure out a way to do some sort of rotation between plant/ animal other taxonomic groupings etc just for the sake of both coverage and fairness. I would also think it may be good to advertise the new author (this would go for featured species too) on twitter and facebook pages. May attract additional editors. I think we have to be fair on their nomenclature, very old taxonomic works do not follow modern versions of the code and are very loosely accepted as given for taxa older than about 1930, however I think constant renaming of the same taxa may be something to be considered for assessing quality, John Edward Gray was very guilty of this. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 23:17, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
@Faendalimas: A featured author (or species of the month, for that matter; any featured content) need not have exhaustive bibliographic data, but should have more info than say Adriana Hoffmann Jacoby or Francesco Redi. No doubt both authors are "distinguished", but highlighting their impoverished Wikispecies page seems lackluster. Wikispecies is first and foremost a directory, not a biographical dictionary or encyclopedia. There should be concerted, before-hand effort to compile major publications (at the very least), and to populate the respective named taxa category with more than one or zero taxa. Formally opening up the distinguished author selection to community discussion would allow for such before-hand improvement, even if all taxa or publications are not recorded. From cursory glance I believe John Edward Gray is of a satisfactory level of completeness to warrant being "featured" on the Wikispecies main page, keeping in mind Wikispecies' function as a directory. -Animalparty (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

@Animalparty, Faendalimas, Mariusm: Sorry for not being as active in this thread as I should. Personally I find "Featured author" to be a much better title than "Distinguished author". My main criteria for choosing authors for the Distinguished author category has so far been that it should include authors of both sexes, from all continents of the world, working within different scientific disciplines. However that turns out to be rather difficult since male, European and American authors are overrepresented, and about half of all of the authors listed at Wikispecies are entomologists. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 01:01, 25 June 2017 (UTC).

InternetArchiveBot and the Wayback Machine[edit]

I'm pleased to note that User:InternetArchiveBot is now active on this project, updating dead links so that they point, where possible, to a copy of the relevant page on the Wayback Machine.

You may see talk page edits like this one; if so, please follow the guidelines it contains, and check that the updated links are OK.

You may also like to submit web pages which you cite here, to the Wayback Machine, to ensure that an archive copy is available for future reference, Various browser plugins and use scripts (not specific to Wikispecies) exist to do this.

Many thanks to User:Cyberpower678, who operates the bot on several Wikipedias, for responding to my request to render this service here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:45, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Glad to do it. Also if you're interested in the tools they come with, have a look at —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 12:45, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

WS android app[edit]

I just made the 100th download of the Wikispecies android app, available at Google play. Just a reminder for you who already know it existed, but also interesting news for you did not. The app is made by the Kiwix Team, who also made other useful Wikimedia applications. Dan Koehl (talk) 15:41, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the update, Dan. I added a link to the Android app to Main Page back in October last year, but it's not very apparent together with the Twitter link there, so your reminder of the app is welcome. Not that it's of much use for me personally, since I'm an Apple guy and unfortunately there's no Wikispecies app for iPhone or iPad, at least not yet. :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 04:02, 9 June 2017 (UTC).
@Tommy Kronkvist: - try here :-) MPF (talk) 00:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, but "These aren't the Droids you're looking for" :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:11, 15 June 2017 (UTC).

Dealing with oddly formatted pages[edit]

The are a number of pages with a flawed or at least odd format, such as for example Ocellularia albobullata and Gloeodendrales. I think we might benefit from marking them in some way, preferably by use of a template such as {{Cleanup}} (see this working example on enWP.) That template could also automatically add the pages to a specific category, say Category:Pages needing cleanup, which would make it easier for us to deal with them as quickly as possible. I try to help out as often as I can when I stumble upon a page that needs a bit of refurbishment, but there are quite a lot of areas where I feel I lack the proper expertise (Pteridophyta, Rotifera, Tardigrada, etc.) However if they were all gathered together in a category it would be easy for users to help fix any pages within the user's specific areas of expertise. What say ye?
Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:56, 14 June 2017 (UTC).

In addition to this it would be appropriate to appeal to the page's creators, in this case @Ed Uebel: and @Zorahia: and ask them to abstain from making and/or correct their badly formatted pages. Mariusm (talk) 04:18, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Identifying and marking bad formatted pages, is in any case good, I support that template. Dan Koehl (talk) 14:33, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Definitely a good idea. Andyboorman (talk) 15:44, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Both the {{Cleanup}} template and a "Pages needing cleanup" category are now created, but feel free to add additional information to them, if needed. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 10:43, 16 June 2017 (UTC).

Old foreign-language journals[edit]

I wonder how's best to represent old foreign-language journals.

For example a Russian journal published between 1925 and 1932:

  • The original name:
    • Ежегодник Зоологического музея Академии наук Союза Советских Социалистических Республик.
  • The French name which was written on the journal's front page in addition to the Russian name:
    • Annuaire du Musée Zoologique de l'Académie des Sciences de l'Union des Républiques Sovietiques Socialistes.
  • Cyrillic transcribed to Latin - which is used by several authors:
    • Ezhegodnik Zoologicheskogo Muzeya, Akademiya Nauk SSSR.
  • The English version:
    • Annual of the Zoological Museum of the academy of sciences of the U.S.S.R.

Mariusm (talk) 14:19, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I am guessing what you mean are old journals using non latin characters such as the Russian one you refer to. My thinking is to use the original names listed in the journal, whichever is appropriate, first, ie in your example the French name, for no other reason that to avoid cyrillic lettering, in the absence of this we should use the cyrillic maybe with a Latinised version to help. Not a fan of translating it to english since that is not really representative of the journal. However I can see a need to have something to give meaning to the cyrillic, maybe a link to wherever its available will help too, eg BHL. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 16:09, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
I agree. If the journal is using an alternative title in a language using Latin script, this should be used. Anyway, there exists a variety of systems for translitation of Cyrillic script – see en:Romanization of Russian – and even more systems for transcription, e.g. de:Kyrillisches Alphabet#Beispiele für die Umschrift von Namen. Do we need a rule, which of these systems to use, in case we need it? --Franz Xaver (talk) 17:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The same reasoning goes into the article names. One way to do it is to write the article's transliteration followed by a translation in square parentheses like: Zhuki-nosorogi (Oryctes Ill.) russkoy i sredne-asiatskoy fauny (Coleoptera, Scarabaeidae). [Species generis (Oryctes Ill.) Faunae rossicae et mesasiaticae (Coleoptera, Scarabaeidae).] Mariusm (talk) 05:54, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes, agreed in general. However, in your example the Latin translation of the Russian article title is flawed. (In the Russian text the words "species" and "genus" don't occur.) Was this Latin translation given by the journal? Anyway, in this special case, I don't think, that a translation of the Russian title actually is necessary, as it is not difficult to understand, even if you don't speak Russian. --Franz Xaver (talk) 08:01, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
@Franz Xaver: Yes, the Latin translation is from the article. One other possibility is to write the article's name only in English between square parentheses like: [Russian and mid-Asiatic fauna of Oryctes Ill.] Mariusm (talk) 08:37, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
@Mariusm: For Russian article titles, the latter should not be recommended. However, it might be an option for articles with only a Chinese title, as transcription of Chinese (or Japanese) is much more difficult, compared to languages using Cyrillic script. Anyway, in your example, the Russian title correctly should be translated as [The Rhinoceros beetles (Oryctes Ill.) of the Russian and mid-Asiatic fauna (Coleoptera, Scarabaeidae).] --Franz Xaver (talk) 09:12, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
See Zevina, 1981 for another way. This works well for journal articles. Russians organize differently, and longer bibliographies will be in two sections; first is all references of Russian origin, in Russian, second is for everybody else, in whatever. Since it is conventional to use Latin alphabet languages for main titles, and translation/transliterations for other writing systems, original citation, at least title thereof should appear somewhere on reference page. Neferkheperre (talk) 13:07, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Synonyms and homonyms revisited[edit]

This post has been prompted by this discussion with @RLJ: regarding Paronychia Mill., Gard. Dict. Abr., ed. 4: 1019. (1754) and its edits. Rightly, it was pointed out that Paronychia Hill, Brit. Herb. 259 (1756) is a homonym of the first, but not a synonym, as it refers to a totally different entity and therefore does not belong in a list of "Synonyms". These solutions were found, to paraphrase here they are:

  1. Adding a comment in the relevant paragraph, see Ouratea ferruginea, Brackenridgea arenaria and now Paronychia
  2. Adding a comment on the whole article, as possibly "Notes" see Rosa sempervirens
  3. Working with disambiguation pages, see Atriplex axillaris and linked pages.
  4. Omitting the problematic homonyms - see Aspalathus, of which homonyms exist in Caragana.

I would like to widen the discussion to the community. Firstly, does the term Synonymy cover these sorts of non-synonymous homonyms? Are there any of the alternatives above so problematic that they can be dealt with through routine edits, as and when encountered? Finally is there a consensus for a common taxon page format for this section of the page. Regards Andyboorman (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Speaking from the point of view of Zoology and the ICZN code. Homonyms referring to the the same species are actually referred to as cresonyms, homonyms refer to same names for different taxonomic concepts (eg species). In general homonyms are however listed in the synonymy with references to the other taxa, so that the name can be declared a junior or senior homonym, for purposes of priority. It is essential that both effected taxa have this. For our purposes I would recommend a link between the two. Junior homonyms are unavailable names, senior homonyms are available, in the absence of other rulings or issues. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 22:29, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I don't list homonyms under the header "synonymy". It has a separate header at the level in the hierarchy – see e.g. Ouratea rigida. (So my solution is not too different from the Rosa sempervirens example.) As I treat the matter, there are two different ways, one for homonyms of accepted names (Ouratea rigida) and another for homonyms of synonyms (Ochna ferruginea). The solution in Atriplex has the disadvantage, that there is no link to Atriplex axillaris Ten. from the illegitimate Atriplex axillaris Phil. --Franz Xaver (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I add the junior homonyms (Zoology) under the synonymy subsection and label them as [nom. praeocc.] (preoccupied name) like:

  • Actinobolus Mörch, 1853 [nom. praeocc., see Genus Cardites Link, 1807]
  • Actinobolus Stein, 1867 [nom. praeocc., see Genus Actinobolina Strand, 1928, nom. nov.] Mariusm (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Why do taxonomists write the meanest obituaries?[edit] (koavf)TCM 18:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Botanists' last stand[edit] (koavf)TCM 03:27, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Closed topics[edit]

Why were the above topics closed and by who or what? Suggest they are opened ASAP. Andyboorman (talk) 10:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

The reason is this edit by User:MABot, having removed {{Discussion bottom}}, but leaving {{Discussion top}}. --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
I fixed it, MABot isn't behaving well. I mentioned it about a month ago when it cut a discussion at the middle producing an unwanted effect. Mariusm (talk) 11:48, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
@MarcoAurelio:, who operates MABot. However, the problem was caused by User:Faendalimas in this edit, where the template was placed before, rather than after, the relevant section heading. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:23, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Sorry. The script archives threads starting from the == Title ==. Everything above the section is ignored, because the bot understands that the thread starts with the title and not above it. The solution is to put those archive templates inside the thread and not above it. Hope that it helps. Best regards, —MarcoAurelio (☎ talk) 11:09, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

User: PokestarFan using the AWB has dammaged many author pages[edit]

@PokestarFan: has been using extensively the AWB on author pages, and made many harmful edits in the process, removing author's links like this diff. I will block him until we make sure he does't continue this massive dammage. Mariusm (talk) 04:36, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I also wanted to express this concern at some point. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 04:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
For those of you who want to undo his edits, this link is a start. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: All edits? —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 04:49, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
@AlvaroMolina: Not all of his edits need to be undone--I'm just suggesting a way to try to look thru them. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Okay. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 04:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
For clarification: the vast majority of his edits are very small and looks fine (for example this one), but unfortunately some of the bigger edits were incorrect and slipped through my checks. This of course includes the edit mentioned by Mariusm above. (That page were flawed even before PokestarFan's edit – hence still is even though it is now reverted – but that fact doesn't really have any merit here.) I'll start fixing the erroneous edits later today, but feel free to help out if you want to. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 05:06, 21 June 2017 (UTC).
I don't know the style rules that should follow the pages of authors, so someone more experienced will know which editions are correct or not. That yes, in its modifications I have noticed that it adds bold to the names and it changes of place the DEFAULTSORT or the sections. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 05:10, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to establish some type of restriction of use with this application through a list of authorized users as in English Wikipedia. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 04:57, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the Bot policy update thread above, yes I agree that we need an AWB policy of some sort. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 05:07, 21 June 2017 (UTC).
I also agree we need an AWB policy, but I think it needs to be clearly recognised that under most circumstances it is assisted editing, not a bot per se. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 06:22, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Mariusm, AlvaroMolina, Koavf, Tommy Kronkvist: In my opinion, the edit mentioned by Mariusm actually is not that problematic. He only has removed circular links pointing back to the same page. That seems OK to me. However, he additionaly should have bolded the author name. Anyway, better to have all these references in templates. --Franz Xaver (talk) 09:08, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Franz Xaver: I downright disagree with your comment on "circular links". These links are supposed to facilitate copying and pasting a reference into an article, where no further editing will be necessary to make an author link. These "circular links" are also manifested in ref templates once they are added to the "Publications" section of an author. Furthermore, not all refs can be templates, since this will mean a lot of work to make templates and consequently the the more important taxa pages will suffer. Mariusm (talk) 09:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
and how can a person who didn't make a single normal WS edit and isn't familiar with our format, make thousands of automated edits without first consulting us and supposedly "correct" us? This sounds like a very absurd situation! Mariusm (talk) 09:46, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
@Mariusm: OK, I understand the argument concerning copying. However, I can't see the point, why it should be much easier to add these references to the author page than adding them to ref template pages. --Franz Xaver (talk) 10:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
New editors should be welcomed, and guided, not treated as unwelcome outsiders. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:57, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Mariusm has blocked user:PokestarFan for a month, with no warning other than that given immediately prior to the block. [P.S. PokestarFan did noted edit between the warning and the block.] Since blocks are supposed to be "preventative not punitive", it is difficult to see why a month-long block is needed, nor indeed, why PokestarFan should be allowed to resume the same editing, after a month. I suggest therefore that the block be changed to an indefinite one, and lifted as soon as PokestarFan gives an undertaking not to edit in the same manner, at least without first obtaining consensus to do so. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:57, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

As already pointed, I reviewed some of the edits and looked very simple organizing edits, did not perceive the removing of links. Definitely, yes, we need more control on bots. Meanwhile, in this case, I don't see any signal of bad intention and the one month blocking looks to me excessive and should be changed to some sort of orientation process. Otherwise, as said, we are not encouraging new editors.--Hector Bottai (talk) 11:06, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

At the top of this section, Mariusm says PokestarFan "made many harmful edits". Can we see some evidence of this, please? It seems that the majority of their AWB edits were benign, and only one diff demonstrating alleged harm has been provided. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: I'm glad to provide you with acute opportunities of attacking me, and I'm pleased you readily seize them. I only hope you'll practice more on this trend to bring it to perfection. Please look here here here here here here and dozens more undesired edits. I'm surprised you're defending PokestarFan being so strict on bot usage. I propose AWB to be available only to Admins or by special permission, and i'll propose this change of policy in another post. It is unthinkable that a beginer would have such a powerful tool at his disposal. Mariusm (talk) 14:06, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Please drop the paranoid accusations, and simply address the issues raised, as any admin should, when requested. It seems from your (now seven) examples that the only "harm" done was the removal of non-functioning links from the pages that they linked to. As we can see above, not everyone agrees with you that this is harmful, at all, nor that the length of the block you made was justified. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
I am not sure that the block is warranted in this case, but I will leave that to @Mariusm: to decide. In regards to whether or not the user gets a bot flag, that is really another issue and should be dealt with at his bot application. As for whether we need an AWB policy, I think we do, this needs to be proposed and discussed. Just separating the issues here. So my view here is, first try to communicate with this editor and bring themup to speed on policies, and editing protocols, maybe askhim to refrain from AWB for now and get used to the place first. Second instead of arguing here about it, vote appropriately on the bot application and third we should discuss AWB in more detail. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 14:31, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Hey all, im coming all the way from Wikidata. His bot was rejected 4x. 1, 2, 3, 4. All closed by bureaucrat as "not trusted". His contributions are 50/50 good bad. However, his automated contributions are really poor. MechQuester (talk) 18:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I unblocked him so that he can help undo his own edits. —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:35, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I have created Wikispecies:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage to avoid future abuses with this program. See Here for More Information. Regards. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 06:11, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: @Koavf: Please note that PokestarFan is blocked indefinitely on commons for "Treating Commons as a playground. User is incompetent" [1] and also on the enWP for "Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia" [2]Mariusm (talk) 09:21, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

That's Commons, this is Wikispecies. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:36, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: @Koavf: @Faendalimas: The extent of PokestarFan's edits on 21 June from 21:10 to 2:10 is mind-boggling: He made in this span of 5 hours no less than 9000 edits! For someone who's blocked on several wiki this was a major negligence on our part not to try to stop him, even if his edits were neutral for the best part. This only shows we're not properly protected and our rules are too relaxed. And on top of this laughing out loud - he's applying now for a bot... Mariusm (talk) 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, him applying for a bot is basically what we asked him to do. We can--probably will--deny it but that's a legitimate request. —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:22, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
He has every right to apply for a bot account, whether it will be granted is another matter. That will be based on the results. As to his block, I said before that I leave it to you as the original blocker of the account to decide. I was not going to overrule you. That Justin unblocked him is reasonable and was added as a comment. I do agree this user needs to do some learning here before he does any more large scale editing. However, I am willing to give him the chance to demonstrate this and learn. Cheers, Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 16:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Back again . . .[edit]

Take a look at Special:Contributions/Allspecies - guess who! - MPF (talk) 10:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Not sure, if it's him. Working at an unsual time of the day, compared to his earlier editing. Moreover, also habits of editing are slightly different, e.g. now linking to author pages and not to reference templates, as he did before - see here. --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Who is "him"? I can tell you that I certainly am me, but am I him? Maybe I'm two people, or more! Allspecies (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Hi Allspecies! Would you agree to a checkuser assessment, whether you and User:Stho002 are the same person? --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:41, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
We cannot do CheckUser requests this way. If it is believed a CheckUser is required the appropriate request must be made and must show some evidence of this being required. They cannot be done at the User in questions request, particularly if prompted. Cheers, Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 13:14, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Apologies @Allspecies: assuming that you are not impersonating a serial sockpuppet amateur entomologist with attitude based in New Zealand. This character thought that WS was his personal garden and had a habit of picking a fight with all who disagreed with his vision, whatever that was! So in good faith welcome. Regards Andyboorman (talk) 18:52, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, feel free to do your "CheckUser" if you wish, but I can tell you with utmost sincerity (hand on heart) that I am not an "amateur entomologist" of any description! Allspecies (talk) 19:41, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
@Allspecies: Let me echo the above sentiment: we are happy to have new contributors and some of us are still a little on edge about what has happened in the past. Thanks for adding to the directory. —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Help needed for using this template[edit]

I created and used this template, but I am not able to find where at BHL (if there) are the figures cited in each original description as "Atlas". Like this. Any insight? Thanks--Hector Bottai (talk) 11:48, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for Bot Policy change (canceled)[edit]

In view of PokestarFan's recent use of AWB program to perform thousands of edist in a very short period, some being entirely undesired, and him being a WS newcomer with no knowledge of taxonomy or of our unique formats I propose to change our bot policy. I was sure AWB can be used only by admins or after special permission. This however seems not to be the case. We have to take precaution to prevent these incidents. Therefore I propose the following addition to our Wikispecies:Bot policy: "The software tools AWB and JWB can be used only by admins or by users who made at least 150 WS edits and after acquiring a permission from an admin." I would also like to ask @PokestarFan: how did he get the permission to use AWB which is a restricted program. Mariusm (talk) 04:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I may be incorrect but I think the restriction of AWB is wiki project specific. It is restricted on the WP sites but I think on many sites this is not the case. If I am correct maybe we should consider it being a restricted program here too. Not sure how all this works but I know that once I got permission to use it on WP I could use it everywhere. However that may be as I said because it is only restricted on WP. Cheers, Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 04:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
If there is no checkpage, then any user can use AWB. That's how it works. PokestarFan (talk) 19:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
We simply didn't know an essential fact: we had to construct the page Wikispecies:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage where the AWB looks for permissions!! I added MariusBot to the list. Now it remains to add there all the other AWB bots. Till now we were vulnerable to any user operating the AWB and even didn't know it; a major oversight! But now everything is OK. Many thanks to @AlvaroMolina: for creating the page. Consequently my proposal is canceled. Mariusm (talk) 06:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
@Faendalimas: Not only that but AWB is free/open software that anyone can edit, so you can just take out the bits that identify it as AWB and use it anyway. I know that users have done that before on en.wp. —Justin (koavf)TCM 06:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
I've tried Wikispecies:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage with my MariusBot account and it works: without an entry there I can't log to the AWB, so now PokestarFan would not be able to use the AWB unless his username is added to the page (by an admin). Mariusm (talk) 09:59, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

The page Wikispecies:AutoWikiBrowser shows a broken link (some template error). --Murma174 (talk) 10:13, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I fixed it with this edit and it now displays properly, but I'm not sure if it broke anything. Feel free to revert it if you find it a mistake. Also, feel free to import the templates we use at Meta for the translate extension such as TNT, TNTN and Dynamite and keep it in sync. :) Regards, —MarcoAurelio (☎ talk) 11:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, MarcoAurelio! —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 13:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
We need a process for people to ask for AWB permissions then. Some minimum requirements can be included in that page. But some process is needed since people have the right to ask to use it. We must then decide if they can based on experience and add them to the checkpage. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 12:44, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
I propose as basic requirements that the user takes some time collaborating in the project (the number of editions and registration time I leave it to criterion), that is trustworthy here and in other projects, and is able to demonstrate to know all the policies of style which should follow the Wikispecies pages. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 13:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
We may use the enWP as an example. Their rule is "Except in unusual circumstances, users with fewer than 250 non-automated mainspace edits or 500 total mainspace edits will not be added to the list." (see [3]). Mariusm (talk) 15:04, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Good and bad news about cross-wiki search results in Wikipedia[edit]

Good news: The cross-wiki search results from other projects are now live in Wikipedia. Bad news: The search results from Wikispecies are suppressed via RfC discussion in English Wikipedia, meaning users won't see those results in English Wikipedia. Don't feel down yet. Non-English users from non-English Wikipedia sites may still be directed to any pages of Wikispecies. Feel free to share your thoughts here. --George Ho (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC); see near bottom, 12:40, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

suppressed via RfC discussion in English Wikipedia Not so; Wikispecies was never - it says there - in scope for this change. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:38, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
um I just read it, wikispecies was specifically mentioned as was wikidata in same viepoints. So how is wikispecies not included in their rfc? I wish I had known about what they were doing. I think WP has absolutely zero taxonomic capacity in all honesty, their data is outdated, incorrect and driven by personal ionterests and pet projects. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 23:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
Wait, Andy and Scott. I was wrong. Wikispecies is not included yet as part of the cross-wiki search. Same for Wikidata. --George Ho (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Also, the task was tried but declined due to that RfC discussion. --George Ho (talk) 12:44, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for new template for people[edit]

I am sorry I messed up the project. However, as I know literally nothing about taxons, I want to improve Wikispecies in a different way.

I propose a template (below) to make pages for people much easier to navigate and understand.

I hope you accept it. --PokestarFan (talk) 21:07, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Template for People[edit]

Village Pump


Please see the template {{Biography}} Mariusm (talk) 06:32, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Seems comprehensive, not an expert on templates or an editor that works with authors, but look forward to hearing from those who could be interested in this approach. Andyboorman (talk) 22:08, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
@Andyboorman: I pointed out the {{Biography}} template to PokestarFan not because I think it's a good way to treat author pages but merely to show him his author template suggestion has been dealt with before. Mariusm (talk) 06:21, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
I suggest to remove all these points from the template, which already are covered by {{Authority control}}. --Franz Xaver (talk) 06:30, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
The {{Authority control}} template is transcluded within {{Biography}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
...also, unfortunately it places it in the wrong place on the pages. See [4], [5] and [6] (all used as examples in the template's documentation.) –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:43, 24 June 2017 (UTC).
The fact, that it places the information in the wrong place, is the reason, that I would prefer these points to be removed from the biography template. --Franz Xaver (talk) 19:18, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
No; that's not a reason to remove parts of the template; it's a reason to continue to improve the template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:43, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes; Improve its usability by reducing its complexity. --Franz Xaver (talk) 20:49, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Stegomyia --> Aedes (Stegomyia)[edit]

Hi all,
Given that Stegomyia is a subgenus of the genus Aedes, the page Stegomyia should be titled Aedes (Stegomyia). Can someone move the page? Thank you in advance.
SenseiAC (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

@SenseiAC: We're treating the subgenera here as genus-type names meaning that Stegomyia is an adequate and legitimate page name as long as it's labeled as a subgenus, which it is. Some contributors like to format the subgenera as Genus (Subgenus) and we've here many subgenera of either format - both formats being adequate. Therefore I say - let this name remain unchanged. We have here hundreds of subgenera with this same format. On top of that, if we change the name according to your suggestion we'll need to change the child taxa meaning the Stegomyia species pages which will be a considerable task. Mariusm (talk) 12:50, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
@Mariusm: it seems to be the only subgenus of Aedes in this case. Also, it just complicates the understanding for the “random” reader not to have a uniform way of titling the articles of subgenera. Maybe a community decision should be taken, either in one direction or the other, for things to be coherent. SenseiAC (talk) 12:54, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
By the way, I have removed this morning “Stegomyia” from the list of subgenera on the page Aedes since it was practically twice in the list: once as “Stegomyia” (the only subgenus written as such there) and once as “Aedes (Stegomyia)” (the one I let, as it is for all the other subgenera). SenseiAC (talk) 12:57, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
@SenseiAC: I personally side with the Stegomyia format and I'm editing my contributions accordingly, and yes, we need to reach a consensus about this but it would be a difficult decision due to different opinions here. I think that the Stegomyia format is more simple and more coherent, more flexible and also it is used in a considerable number of catalogs and of listings. Mariusm (talk) 13:03, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
I put it back as ''[[Stegomyia|A. (Stegomyia)]]'' - it displays as A. (Stegomyia) but links to Stegomyia Mariusm (talk) 13:08, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
[Also discussed here.] I agree with Sensei, "a decision should be taken, either in one direction or the other, for things to be coherent". There are pages been moved to one direction to another, and this cause instability in WS. It's time to discussed this issue. Burmeister (talk) 13:35, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
@Burmeister: I also agree with you both. The problem is that too few users are interested here in this kind of controversy and I presume a poll would unfortunately yield fewer than 5 votes. Nevertheless I encourage you to set up a vote or if you don't feel like it I'll ultimately do it. Mariusm (talk) 14:32, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
I personally would prefer the Genus (Subgenus) format to be the standard solution, as this reduces the risk of having hemihomonyms with botanical genus names. --Franz Xaver (talk) 19:27, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
@Franz Xaver: I'm sorry, but your reasoning entails a narrow point of view. You being a botanist don't have to contend with the subgenera, which are a major stumbling block in WS-Zoology. The hemihomonyms are a very tiny problem compared with the problems arising from the Genus (Subgenus) system, which wreaks havoc with many zoology pages. Please allow for a little consideration towards your fellow-zoologists. Mariusm (talk) 04:35, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@Mariusm: You should not complain, "that too few users are interested here", when you try to brush aside my argument here. As I understand the situation now, zoological WS editors apply different approaches. Why not add an argument, about how zoological and botanical nomenclature are interfering? By the way, also in botany, subgenera are in use, e.g. Elvasia subg. Elvasia. --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@Franz Xaver: I don't brush aside your arguments, it's just a case of priorities and of weighting the benefits against the drawbacks for each party. That's all. Mariusm (talk) 12:19, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Mariusm, maybe to soon to make a pool, perhaps call editors (via bot message ?) to discuss the issue is a better approuch. Burmeister (talk) 13:46, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Problem of limit of template recursion depth[edit]

I have created the templates for three missing levels in the Homo structure: Choanobionta, Filozoa and Holozoa (the proper pages are to be created, I have only created the templates so far), that are above Animalia and below Opisthokonta. However, now, in the Homo page, there is a red message saying “Template recursion depth limit exceeded (40)”. Is there a way to solve this problem? The best would certainly be to be able to extand the limit of the template recursion depth (to at least 50, but I would go even farther, maybe directly 100, in order not to have to change again if additional intermediate levels should be added: I have already found several other missing intermediate levels in the Homo structure, such as Olfactores, Euteleostomi, Euarchonta, Primatomorpha).
By the way, I mistakenly created Template:Opistokonta (with a missing “h”, while the correct Template:Opisthokonta also exists); could someone remove the erroneous page?
Thank you in advance.
SenseiAC (talk) 16:58, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

@SenseiAC: please be careful and do not insert undefined templates (red links)!!!!! They affect all the ranks below. Your insertion of Olfactores affected all the chordata pages in removing the __NOTOC__ option to all the Chordata pages. Before inserting a template please define (or create) it first! Please remove all the red-link templates you've inserted. Mariusm (talk) 04:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Sorry @Mariusm:, it was a unique case, I had a computer problem yesterday when I wanted to edit the page of the Craniata (I was neither sure that the edit was saved, neither was I able to create the template). I created the template this morning and added back Olfactores. However, we still have the problem of recursion depth. I also added a number of missing levels in Elephas (Elephantiformes, Elephantimorpha, Elephantida, Elephantoidea, Elephantinae, Elephantini and Elephantina) and we have the same recursion depth problem. Any idea how to solve it? SenseiAC (talk) 09:36, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@SenseiAC: Unfortunately templates can't be nested more than 40 levels deep. This means the template ladder from top to bottom can have 40 steps at the most (and see this). WS is more about species than about the upper (and isoteric) levels of classification, so you'll have to remove the steps you've created from the ladder, and try to restyle the classification in another way - not by templates but in the articles themselves. Mariusm (talk) 10:24, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@Mariusm: an easy way to keep everything would be to not use as many inclusions. What I mean is that, for example, in Template:Elephantidae, instead of « "Template:Euelephantoidea" / Familia: Elephantidae », there could be « "Template:Elephantoidea" / Cladus: Euelephantoidea / Familia: Elephantidae » for example. In other words, some levels would simply need to use a template two (or more) levels above itself, instead one one level above now, + adding by hand the two (or more) levels down to itself. Would it be fine for you? SenseiAC (talk) 10:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@SenseiAC: This isn't a good idea because if Elephantoidea has several cladi in addition to Cladus: Euelephantoidea the Cladus: Euelephantoidea will also show in all the other cladi whenever the "Template:Elephantoidea" will be evoked, which isn't what we want to achieve. Mariusm (talk) 11:13, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@Mariusm: you didn't get what I meant. Euelephantoidea and Elephantidae wouldn't be written in the template "Elephantoidea" but in the template "Elephantidae" of course. Therefore, obviously Euelephantoidea and Elephantidae would not appear when calling the template "Elephantoidea"; it would not make any sense if it would. Practically, we would have this :
  • Template "Elephantoidea": as for the moment, call "Template:Elephantida" + write by hand "Cladus: Elaphantoidea"
  • Template "Euelephantoidea": call "Template:Elephantoidea" + write by hand "Cladus: Euelphantoidea"
  • Template "Elephantidae" : call "Template:Elephantoidea" + write by hand "Cladus: Euelphantoidea" and "Cladus: Elephantidae".
SenseiAC (talk) 11:17, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@SenseiAC: Sorry I lost track with all these cladi. I need to see an example to verify if this really works. Again, the best way would be to omit the more esoteric cladi and to concentrate only on the ranks of familia and below which are the important ranks for Wikispecies. Mariusm (talk) 11:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
I have to agree with Mariusm here. Also, familia and lower taxa are far more susceptible to taxonomical revisions than higher taxa. Adding more taxa "by hand" to the templates therefore will request more work for us when such revisions occur. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 12:26, 25 June 2017 (UTC).
I agree with Mariusm and Tommy, given the restrictions, the lower taxa should be preserved against the higher, and manually adding definitely is not a good idea.--Hector Bottai (talk) 13:55, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Possible duplicate[edit]

Does anybody here know whether the pages Hans Weber and Hans Martin Weber perhaps refer to the same person, hence should be merged? Personally I can't find specific enough data regarding the taxa "they" have named, respectively, and therefore don't know. Sometimes Wikidata carry useful information to help sort these matters out, but not in this particular case. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 00:41, 25 June 2017 (UTC).

Yes, I see no reason to doubt they are the same person. Both were added by @Kempf EK: in 2013 and both as Micropalaeontologists/Ostracodologists. Mariusm (talk) 04:44, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Aptenia cordifolia authorithy[edit]

Hi. If you're a botanist please head over to Talk:Aptenia cordifolia and share your wisdom. :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:00, 25 June 2017 (UTC).

Moved from Wikispecies:Requests for Comment for visibility[edit]

It seems that Wikispecies is against freedom of expression, or more specifically against the right of a person to correct even the simplest mistaken statements or omissions about that person's biography and bibliography and lists of new taxa as presented by Wikispecies.

Until a couple of days ago, I had never accessed Wikispecies. Then someone pointed put to me that it has the most extensive bibliography of my publications in ichthyology available anywhere. I found out it also included a list of taxa supposedly named after me, and lists of higher taxa, new genera of fishes, and new species named by me.

Finding that a number of the patronyms named robertsi are named after persons other than me, I corrected the list accordingly, and added some new names. Apparently this has been accepted. But according to your policy, it should not have been because it was proposed by me, and according to Wikispecies (and Wikipedia), that is a conflict of interest. So you evidently employ a double standard in this. It is not evident how such decisions are made, so there is an issue of transparency here.

According to Wikispecies, correcting erroneous personal information is a conflict of interest! THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME I encounter someone or some institution defining "conflict of interest" to suit its own interests or purposes--isn't that a conflict of interest? Your concept of "conflict of interest" conflicts with my interests. When insurance and finance companies make mistakes about persons, such as providing wrong birth dates, they sometimes do not permit the person concerned to make a change. These are the sort of companies that have similar conflict of interest policies similar to Wikispecies.

Previously Wikispecies included an incomplete list of new fish genera of fishes named by me. The list included 18 names. I added some missing names, bringing the total to 23. Now all of these names have been erased.

Wikispecies also included a list of species named by me, with 161 entries. i added a half-dozen, bringing the number to 167. Now the entire list has been erased.

Wikispecies did have a list of 6 higher fish taxa (above genus level) named by me. I added one more, bringing the total to 7. Now that list has been replaced by an entry that provides references only to about 7 taxa at generic level. There is a comment that "this list may be incomplete." That is an invitation to add to it, which I did, and then the entire list was deleted.

Because of the University of Chicago Press and Wikipedia, I am now known as "the world's foremost authority on the oceanic oarfishes or Regalecus." I never claimed this for myself. In fact, I resent being referred to only as that because it slights all the other work done by me. Most of my work has been on tropical freshwater fishes. When i tried to redress the balance by adding very general statements about my work and my research results and interests, none of it in conflict of interest with anybody, it was rejected.

Most of the statements made by me cannot be documented by any published sources. Am I not a legitimate source about information concerning me?

In Wikipedia it was formerly stated that I am affiliated with the Center for Ecology and Conservation of Mahidol University. That center no longer exists. I am now affiliated with the Institute of Molecular Biosciences of Mahidol University. I made this change and it apparently has been accepted. But again, it should not have been accepted because since it was proposed by me it is a "Wikispecies confllct of interest" I mention Wikipedia here, because such a problem could easily have occurred in Wikispecies.

When I looked up the entry on me in Wikispecies, I clicked on edit. There was no warning about prohibition of self-editing by Wikispecies. The same applies to Wikispecies. This is unnecessarily misleading and caused me to do a lot of work for nothing.

I request that Wikispecies restore the corrected lists of taxa higher than genera, genera and species named by me that I recently provided.

I also request that Wikispecies allow the additional biographical material that I provided by me, so that I can now be known as an authority on oarfishes or Regalecus and also someone who has done a lot of work on freshwater fishes.

Wikispecies needs to modify its policy of self-editing, so that persons like me can make appropriate additions to lists of taxa, etc.

Thus far I have found Wikispecies response inappropriate and inadequate. I look forward to some substantive response addressing the species issues raised by Wikispecies account of me. Tyson R. Roberts (talk) 19:26, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Tyson R. Roberts: I respect what you're saying and I don't want you to be put off from contributing. Let me take a look and see what I can figure out but I am not a taxonomist and I encourage others who are specialists to take a look as well, please. —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf, Tyson R. Roberts: It was I who removed the data from the Tyson R. Roberts page, about 40 minutes after leaving a welcome note on User:Tyson R. Roberts' talk page. The summary I wrote when removing the data reads "Removed a dead external link, inline named taxa that should be listed in category instead, and out of scope material better suited for Wikipedia." In other words, it had nothing to do with any "confllct of interest" between Dr. Roberts and his edits of the page. One of the links in the welcoming message from me points to What Wikispecies is not, which among other things points out that "Blocks of prose are language-specific and would incorrectly lead to the impression that Wikispecies is a fork of Wikipedia, which it is not". Another link in my welcoming message is Help:Contents, which in turn give information about authors and author names. There one can read that "We maintain articles in Wikispecies with minimum information. First line [on author pages] should be dates of birth and, if deceased, death. Second line can be a very brief description for clarification. This is generally nationality and speciality. There may sometimes be more clarifying information, especially if there is another author with a similar name." That's the reason for me removing the most part of the biography, for as I say in my edit summary that information is "out of scope material better suited for Wikipedia".
As for the removal of the lists of named taxa, well... those lists should not be there. Again per my edit summary "inline named taxa should be listed in category instead". If we use the page Hypergastromyzon Roberts, 1989 as an example and check the code we find the code string [[Category:Tyson R. Roberts taxa]] near the very bottom. That code snippet automatically adds that page to Category:Tyson R. Roberts taxa i.e. lists the taxon as one of the (now) 7 taxa mentioned by Roberts above. So in order to list all of the taxa named by Roberts, we must first create the corresponding taxa pages, and add them to that category using the above mentioned code snippet. This is consensus on Wikispecies, and the reason is that some authors have named thousands upon thousands of taxa. Listing them all directly on the author pages would clutter upp the code and make the pages very hard to manage, hence using a category instead is better.
In the same edit I also changed the heading "Patronyms (one genus of gobioid fish, 20 species of fishes, and one species of hymenosomatid crab)" into simply "Patronyms". This is Wikispecies praxis, the reason being that per our Language convention "Wikispecies is language independent as much as possible". Also, stating type of organisms in the list's heading is redundant, since one can easily find that out by simply reading the actual list.
With all this said I would like to firmly point out that I have nothing against Dr. Roberts as such, and think that he is a welcome addition as an Wikispecies editor. He has described a considerable amount of species and higher taxa, and soon preferably all of them will be represented with their own pages here in Wikispecies. However in some aspects Wikispecies have a very different set of editing standards in comparison to other Wikimedia sister projects, and it can take some time to learn them all. I'm willing to help with that, if needed, and I'm sure others are as well. Best regards, Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 21:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC).

@Tommy Kronkvist, Tyson R. Roberts, Koavf: Since Tommy has explained why the edits were changed etc I will not go into this. But I will explain the issue of COI, from the perspective of a taxonomist who also has described numerous taxa. As taxonomists we walk a fine line with regards to COI and NPOV, the latter is Neutral Point of View. Clearly if I edit about taxa I described I am not neutral, and it is easy for me to be accused of having a Conflict of Interest. How do I deal with this. First up I put nothing in that has not been formally published under peer review and I cite those refs. If you look at my author page Scott Thomson it lists all my publications relevant to species names used here. The authored taxa is automatically built from the pages on those species, I did not edit that. For the benefit of others I have been making templates for my publications they are on the talk page. There is no bio about me per se, just my name, date of birth, what I specialise in, authored taxa, and refs. On my user page User:Faendalimas I have the liberty to do a bit of bio, this is optional though, my user page links to my author page. The point is though I am very clear to follow guidelines I did not use any information that could not be looked up in a paper listed on that page. This avoids the COI issue, or more accurately acknowledges it with full disclosure. This can and has been checked by others, for example Tommy who edited it. We do not have to wait for some random person to put our own highly relevant work here. But we do need to be careful doing it. Feel free to use my page as a model, I suggest that for anything more biographical you put it in your User page. As Tommy pointed out, your edits were not removed for COI reasons, but because of guidelines, style etc that is kept consistent in Wikispecies. If you would like help please ask. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 18:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Further comments by Tyson R. Roberts: First of all, thanks to Koavf, Tommy Kronkvist, and Scott Thomson of Wikispecies for their responses. I am still waiting for appropriate response from Wikipedia. Removing the Wikipedia template from the account of me stating quote: "This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)" would be appreciated.
While no sources were cited for the brief biographical statements, they are based on personal knowledge useful for others interested in me and my work, such as where the fish specimens collected by me have been deposited. The bibliographical statements about my work on fishes of the Fly, Kapuas, and Congo rivers are all "referenced" (I find this word has crept into our language) in the section below on "selected publications."
It is all very well to cite specific Wikispecies statements I could have read that would have saved me from trying to edit the Wikispecies entry under my name, had I only known where to look or had I searched enough. Consulting the most obvious places, such as the Wikipedia tutorial, however, did not provide this information. It is not evident to beginners that Wikipedia and Wikispecies are "separate" entities, each with its own rules, etc. Having subsequently looked up a number of other Wikispecies entries on taxonomists it became evident that the biographical statements are invariably only one or two lines. That was not obvious when only the entry under my name was considered.
According to Koavf, [quote] In the same edit I also changed the heading "Patronyms (one genus of gobioid fish, 20 species of fishes, and one species of hymenosomatid crab)" into simply "Patronyms". This is Wikispecies praxis, the reason being that per our Language convention "Wikispecies is language independent as much as possible". Also, stating type of organisms in the list's heading is redundant, since one can easily find that out by simply reading the actual list [end quote]. Without help from me, is he or anyone else able to recognize that one of the 20 species named after me is a crab, and that the others are all fishes (note correct spelling of plural of for fish, when more than one species is involved)?
Yes some taxonomists have named thousands of species, and it would be too much and not very useful for Wikispecies to list them all. But Wikispecies made an effort to list all of the fish taxa named by me, and these lists were very nearly complete. A number of these species are endangered, and some are nearly or already extinct. It seems a step backward to have eliminated the lists. Such information apparently is not available anywhere else.
Koavf [or Scott Thomson] also states, "That's the reason for me removing the most part of the biography [added by Roberts to the Wikispecies account] for as I say in my edit summary that information is "out of scope material better suited for Wikipedia". OK, fair enough, but when the same information was submitted to Wikipedia, it was rejected.
All my life I have been against punishing innocents for the crimes of others. This is, of course, one of the ways used by dictators to control society, such as the widespread Asian practice of extending the death penalty to seven generations. I am referring, of course, to the Wikipedia and Wikispecies practice of prohibiting self-editing. Many people might abuse open editing, but prohibiting it punishes innocent persons by restricting their freedom of speech. Freedom of speech trumps political correctness (leaving aside some complicated and difficult issues such as hate speech) and it also trumps any restrictions by Wikipedia and Wikispecies. This issue was raised in my previous message, and so far there has not been any response.
Tyson R. Roberts
Advisor, Institute of Molecular Biosciences, Mahidol University
(Tyson R. Roberts (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC) )
Heya @Tyson R. Roberts: First up do remember that different projects, such as Wikipedia and Wikispecies, have their own scopes, rules, guidelines and policies. We cannot dictate what Wikipedia does, but we do know their scope. All we can do is suggest something that is beyond our scope may be suitable for theirs. Likewise, policies, templates and content they cover in their scope is not necessarily appropriate here. This is not about freedom of speech, it is about what this taxonomy only encyclopedia covers in its scope. What is outside of this is not covered. As for personal experience and information on specimens you examined or placed in museums, is this in the publication describing the species? if so include it, if not it is original research, another policy called NOR, ir No Original Research, hence again, if it is not published and cannot be independently verified then it cannot be here on Wikispecies. If you look at an examplae page of a species I described Elseya rhodini note the holotype is listed, as is the museum it is lodged in. Wikispecies is about species and their nomenclature. The original authors are just basic data. As I said before if it goes beyond the data needed for the taxoblock of a new description, ie the part that meets the code, then its not needed here. Wikipedia does the in depth pages on selected organisms and people. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 23:02, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Farsi speaker needed[edit]

Do we have a Farsi speaker, who could review edits by new user Ariamihr, and advise them on how best to contribute please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:07, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

yes Ariamihr (talk) 14:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: There are two members of Category:User fa that are also listed as active users, namely Allforrous (fa-1) and ToJack (fa-4). Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 14:41, 27 June 2017 (UTC).

Monotypic genera[edit]

User:Lavalizard101 recently marked Daemonosaurus chauliodus and Eodromaeus murphi for deletion, saying "genus it belongs to is monotypic and all this information is stated there". Is that a valid reason, or do we want two pages in such cases? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:12, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Nope, legitimate taxa should have their own pages, even if their parent taxon is monotypic. I have reverted the edits, and noted the user on his talk page. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 15:06, 27 June 2017 (UTC).
@Tommy Kronkvist: Thank you. Please check Daemonosaurus and Eodromaeus also. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:13, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done, including creating repository pages and their categories, reference templates, and such. Throw me a bone and suddenly I start writing pages about fossils... :-) Thanks for pointing the whole thing out from the start though. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 16:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC).


I propose to add a "Zoobank author ID" parameter to {{Authority control}}, calling values from Wikidata, and then to delete {{ZooBankAut}}. The latter has around 445 transclusions, while Wikidata has over 1,400 values for the equivalent property. Any concerns? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:35, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Nah, I say go for it. We discussed a similar matter a year or so ago, and most users found {{ZooBankAut}} redundant to {{ZooBank}}. From a technical point the same goes for {{ZooBankRef}}, however it is used on several tens of thousands of pages (many of them old "Zt" templates that all should be renamed...)
The template {{ZooBankAct}} (used on 3,959 pages) is a bit different than the others, and is probably still useful as it is. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 16:04, 27 June 2017 (UTC).
Short of running a bot, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to distinguish between transclusions of {{ZooBank}} for papers or for people :-( Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

In fact, it turns out that P2006 is already in {{Authority control}}, so now we need a bot to replace instances of {{ZooBankAut}}, like this.

Afterwards, we need to check that all Zoobank IDs for people, in {{ZooBank}}, are in Wikidata, then have the bot do the same for those cases. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:45, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

And, after scanning the transclusions of {{ZooBank}}, only a few were for people, and I have - I think - manually replaced them all. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

'Official website' template[edit]

I have fixed {{Official website}} and it is now available for use in biographies or institution pages. It pulls its value from Wikidata and will display a bold, red warning if no value is present there. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:43, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

A very good initiative, and that will certainly save us some time when it is 100% working. The template seems to work well for all pages now using it, with the exception of Courtenay N. Smithers. There it links to but clicks are redirected to instead, i.e. not even the same top-level domain, and certainly not a page about Smithers. Maybe the Australian Museum changed their domain and/or server layout recently? –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 03:05, 28 June 2017 (UTC).
The template is already "100% working", the issue on Courtenay N. Smithers is not with the template (nor indeed with Wikispecies), but with bad data, which I trustingly copied from Wikispecies to Wikidata, without checking. It transpires that Smithers died in 2011. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)