Wikispecies:Village Pump

From Wikispecies
Jump to: navigation, search

Welcome to the village pump of Wikispecies. This page is a place to ask questions or discuss the project. If you need an admin, please see the Administrators' Noticeboard. If you need to solicit feedback, see Request for Comment. Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar). Use the Wikispecies IRC channel for real-time chat.

Note: If you insert links to Wikipedia pages in your comments, don't forget the leading colon (:) before the wiki language code (including when you reference a remote user page instead of using a local signature), otherwise it will generate spurious interwiki links collected in the sidebar instead of in the expected location within the discussion. Thanks.

Village pump in other languages: Czech - česky · Finnish - Suomi · French - Français · Hungarian - Magyar · Korean - 한국어 · Russian - Русский · Ukrainian - Українська · Hindi - हिन्दी · Nepali - नेपाली
Post a comment
if you use the title box, you don't need to put a title in the body
1 (2004-09-21/2005-01-05) 2 (2005-01-05/2005-08-23)
3 (2005-08-24/2005-12-31) 4 (2006-01-01/2005-05-31)
5 (2006-06-01/2006-12-16) 6 (2006-12-17/2006-12-31)
7 (2007-01-01/2007-02-28) 8 (2007-03-01/2007-04-30)
9 (2007-05-01/2007-08-31) 10 (2007-09-01/2007-10-31)
11 (2007-11-01/2007-12-31) 12 (2008-01-01/2008-02-28)
13 (2008-03-01/2008-04-28) 14 (2008-04-29/2008-06-30)
15 (2008-07-01/2008-09-30) 16 (2008-10-01/2008-12-25)
17 (2008-12-26/2009-02-28) 18 (2009-03-01/2009-06-30)
19 (2009-07-01/2009-12-31) 20 (2010-01-01/2010-06-30)
21 (2010-07-01/2010-12-31) 22 (2011-01-01/2011-06-30)
23 (2011-07-01/2011-12-31) 24 (2012-01-01/2012-12-31)
25 (2013-01-01/2013-12-31) 26 (2014-01-01/2014-12-31)
27 (2015-01-01/2015-01-31) 28 (2015-02-01/2015-02-28)
29 (2015-02-28/2015-04-29) 30 (2015-04-29/2015-07-19)
31 (2015-07-19/2015-09-23) 32 (2015-09-23/2015-11-21)
33 (2015-11-21/2015-12-31) 34 (2016-01-01/2016-04-17)
35 (2016-03-22/2016-05-01) 36 (2016-05-01/2016-07-12)
37 (2016-07-13/2016-09-30) 38 (2016-10-01/2016-12-04)
39 (2016-12-04/2017-01-17) 40 (2017-01-18/2017-01-28)
41 (2017-01-29/2017-02-13) 42 (2017-02-14/ -)

Auto-archiving bot for talk pages[edit]

Many wikis have a bot which archives talk pages, when there is a "marker" template present on that page, to indicate that this should be done. See, for example, my en.Wikipedia talk page.

I have asked User:Whym whether their ArchiverBot could kindly do this on Wikispecies, and they have agreed, subject to the five standard conditions:

  1. local community consensus for running the bot
  2. localization of the manual (if not yet available)
  3. the name of the marker template
  4. ensuring no AbuseFilter affects the bot
  5. flagging ArchiverBot as a bot.

Please see Whym's further explanation.

We already have User:MiszaBot/config available for point 3; see the instance on my talk page on this project.

The template can be used on user talk pages, article talk pages, and project discussion pages such as this one. It will not act on any of these, if the template is not present.

Is everyone happy to proceed? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I am fine with a bot archiving pages, including the pump. However we do need to be careful of one thing. Particularly on this wiki we have a habit of discussing policy changes and issues on the pump. Probably because we are small and can get away with it. As those discussions pan out, even if they stop some of them should probably be moved to the Wikispecies:Local policies page this would have to be selective as not all of these discussions needs to be saved in an obvious place. Basically for the pump we will need to keep an eye on what is being discussed and move things occasionally. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 13:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Good point. We don't need to move the discussion, just create a summary (which can link to the archived discussion, of course). We also have Wikispecies:Policy. Perhaps those two pages should be merged? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: My understanding of the difference between the two is that Policy actually publishes a complete and pithy, finalized statement, whereas Local Policy is a discussion of issues that may need to be different here than a default "this is how it is on Wikipedia/Meta". —Justin (koavf)TCM 07:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes the concept behind setting up the page local policy was it would be a place to discuss, vote on etc policy issues. They could then be formalised where necessary for the policy pages. The reason for this was discussions of policy matters was cluttering up the pump, alot, so I tried to separate things out a bit. While recognising we are not Wikipedia in size and do not need massive numbers of subpages to accomplish this. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 11:51, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Ah, in that case I'd consider moving "Wikispecies:Local policy" to "Wikispecies:Village Pump (policy)" (mirroring en:Village Pump (policy)). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:28, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to step in. My current BRfa for MABot, which is on trial now, does support archival of pages and trial is approved for such a task. I use User:MABot/config for this, with the same parameters as User:MiszaBot/config. Let me know if I can be of any help here. Regards, -- MarcoAurelio (talk) 11:28, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@MarcoAurelio: Thank you. I my experience, archive bots generally recognise each others' templates, so your bot should be able to act upon parameters set in User:MiszaBot/config. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:54, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: Certainly I can add support for User:MiszaBot/config if wanted. However considering that it has no transclusions I've not done that. —MarcoAurelio (☎ talk) 15:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Well... Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:51, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, well. It is simpler to replace the only instance of that template rather than set up a pararel process. Sorry if that disturbed you. —MarcoAurelio (☎ talk) 11:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

/Archive 41 set up for this page. Please review if you're happy with this and check if some topics are to be moved to Policy/Policy discussions, please. Thanks. —MarcoAurelio (☎ talk) 11:58, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Automating new page creation[edit]

We can signifitely accelerate our new page creation by harvesting data from the Catalogue of Life. It currently has 1,656,180 living and 12,852 extinct species in their records. It gets its data from 156 reliable databases.

Data of unavailable WS genera can be harvested in the form of the following lines:

Gastroserica haucki Ahrens, 2000 Species accepted name
Gastroserica herzi (Heyden, 1887) Species accepted name
Gastroserica higonia (Lewis, 1895) Species accepted name

Each line can be transformed into the following page (data taken from the 1st line):

== Taxonavigation ==

Species: ''[[Gastroserica haucki]]''

== Name ==

''Gastroserica haucki'' Ahrens, 2000

== Status ==

* Species accepted name.

Popular-level article on bird taxonomy[edit]

I figure this may interest some of you: (koavf)TCM 20:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

I saw this artical earlier from Facebook where it was shared by someone. Yes the ornithologists get somewhat pedantic. I also do not think taxonomists sdhould be in the game of dealing with common names, at least not in the same way as we deal with scientific names. Common names are made popular through usage, they should be determined by a bunch of people who probably have little to do with the species. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 23:32, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that in French, unlike in English, the IOU created the fr:Commission internationale des noms français des oiseaux, which has published standardized lists of names, most of which have been taken up wholly (as far as I know) by the french birdwatching community, so obviously taxonomist sometimes DO deal in common names. Circeus (talk) 21:40, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes they do, I just do not think they should. It is beyond the realm of taxonomy and has no set of rules to back up the decisions. Also as I said they creating names for species without local consultation with those who actually work with the species. Rather obnoxious actually. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 22:31, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Had already seen it; some interesting points but nothing new. @Faendalimas: - I fear you're contradicting yourself there, first "they should be determined by a bunch of people who probably have little to do with the species", and then conversely "creating names for species without local consultation with those who actually work with the species"; you are of course correct with the second, not the first ;-) Yes, taxonomists should be dealing with vernacular names: their formation works from formal species lists (like IOC, or BSBI) which are followed by field guide authors, from where the public pick them up. And yes, care is needed in choice of names; there are two simple rules to follow: 1 vernacular names should be taxonomically accurate (so as to help counter creationist / anti-evolutionary misinformation), and 2 subject to 1, should follow local native preference, to avoid the obnoxious cultural imperialism exhibited by some such as ITIS, USDA Plants, and the Clements bird list (see e.g. example here). - MPF (talk) 14:44, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Sorry yes I meant "should not" hence my apparent contradiction. Taxonomists and organisations of them, should not deal in vernacular names. They are irrelevant to taxonomy. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 15:53, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Though I'd disagree on the latter point - vernacular names derive from taxonomy, so taxonomists do hold a responsibility over their accuracy. As an example, in the past, Pseudopodoces humilis was thought to belong in Corvidae, and was called Hume's Ground Jay in English; subsequently it was found to be in Paridae, and was then renamed Ground Tit in English (with similar changes in other languages, e.g. Mésange de Hume in French, Tibetmeise in German, etc.), to indicate its correct taxonomic position. - MPF (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Eh probably due to the unusual level of involvement of bird watches compared to say the situation with snails. Geni (talk) 20:00, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Rather off topic, but in the late 1990's I actually went on a Finnish snail safari in the Åland Islands... :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:21, 1 April 2017 (UTC).

Vote for bot[edit]

I ask the community kindly to take a look on the changes done, and vote on the new bot MABot, which has a request to get bot flag. Dan Koehl (talk) 00:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

As the result of a user poll MABot was granted a trial period of seven days, and approved and given full bot status in March 29, 2017. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 10:46, 31 March 2017 (UTC).

And now we need an Oversighter[edit]

If you want to track down the diffs, you can through my contributions or RfC but we need an Oversighter now and I would have been happy to do it but members of the community were opposed to it on principle. Note that I'm not upset that I don't have the rights but that some users were naysaying our necessity for it and less than a week after the RfCs close for Oversighters here on Wikispecies, we need Oversighters. Off to Meta I go. —Justin (koavf)TCM 15:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

The issue was there since July. You edited the page with the offending materials in November but didn't spot the issues at that time. It was until today when somebody complained and it was oversighted within matter of hours. This particular incident was handled exactly like what I described earlier this month. In other words, our current system of handling it is working fine. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
@OhanaUnited: It wasn't an issue in July or November, so I don't understand your point. If personal information is posted here and that person requests its deletion, then it needs to be deleted. If someone here could do that without troubling a Steward to intervene, that would be better. —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:11, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
And how often does that happen? Not very often. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:25, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@OhanaUnited: Agreed. I don't understand your point. —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:24, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Policy regarding biographies of living people[edit]

I have drafted Wikispecies:Biographies of living people. We should probably consider developing it further, I have been concerned for a while that we publish email addresses, without verification or checking for currency. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Personally I'd rather we did not actually list direct contact information. Normally we'd be linking to enough material (i.e.institutional pages, articles...) that the information, if they have made it available, can be recovered. Circeus (talk) 23:14, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you both. If we chose to list email addresses they must be current and correct, but in my opinion we shouldn't publish direct contact information at all. In either case a formal policy for biographies is a very good idea. Thank you for the initiative. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC).
My personal policy is never publish addresses or e-mails, only institutions where the author was working at the time of certain publication. Necessary initiative. Congrats.--Hector Bottai (talk) 02:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Myron William Kimnach[edit]

A case in point is Myron William Kimnach - a new editor just pointed out that we have dates of 1901-2001, while they met Kimnach in 2010 and (s)he was still writing in 2016. es.Wikipedia has a birth date of 1922. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:02, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Dinosaur (& bird) phylogeny[edit]

Press release and Nature abstract about some major new findings on dinosaur phylogeny from the Natural History Museum (London). If verified, will affect the higher classification of dinosaurs, and birds as well. - MPF (talk) 20:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I read news article about it too. Question is, how are we going to present the information on the involved pages if the scientific community is split between the new and old system? OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:58, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I would suggest waiting for the moment. New proposals such as this take time to be accepted by the scientific community, attempts will be made to refute it. Wait to see if the new arrangements are showing up in further review papers as evidence it is being accepted. Then switch to the new arrangements. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 09:42, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Yep, my thoughts too. Just one to have on the radar to look out for wider acceptance of the changes. - MPF (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Useful user script: taxoboxes at Wikidata[edit]

Taxobox in Wikidata

I have just learned of a user script, Taxobox (script) that can be used at Wikidata, to show a Taxobox for any Wikidata item which has a taxon name (Wikidata property P225). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:13, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: I've had this for awhile now--I had forgotten it wasn't just a standard feature. I have no clue how you got the box to float to the right--it always hangs at the bottom of the page for me. —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Charles Moore[edit]

Charles Moore is an Australian botanist (as linked to wikidata item) and a British paleontologist. Is this one person of maybe this are two different authorities? --Thiotrix (talk) 11:29, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

The British palaeontologist might be 1814-1881, as described here(1) and here(2). --Murma174 (talk) 11:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
They are two different people see here for the botanist. The WS entry confuses the two and there is also a need for a disambig page. IPNI will not have an entry for a paleontologist, by the way. Andyboorman (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Actually, there exist some IPNI entries for paleobotanists, e.g. [1], but coverage is far from complete. --Franz Xaver (talk) 08:58, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Should the disambiguation be Charles Moore (1820-1905) / Charles Moore (1814-1881) or better Charles Moore (botanist) / Charles Moore (geologist)? The birth year of the geologist is given as 1814 or 1815 in the links by Murma174. --Thiotrix (talk) 09:16, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Do we know whether any or both of them have a middle name? If so, the Wikispecies praxis is to add the initial to the page name, e.g. David G. Smith and David R. Smith. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 10:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC).
No middle name as far as I can find. Andyboorman (talk) 13:01, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

In that case I propose Charles Moore (1820–1905) and Charles Moore (1814–1881) (please note the en dashes) rather than Charles Moore (scientific discipline) since there is a significantly smaller risk of another Charles Moore being born and died in the same years, compared to another Charles Moore also working as botanist or geologist. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:08, 29 March 2017 (UTC).

Yes check.svg Done --Thiotrix (talk) 07:21, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

What is a species?[edit]

An interesting article in the Atlantic on bird taxonomy & naming where the following concepts are discussed:

  • Taxonomists try to apply artificial barriers on a continuum.
  • Taxonomists draw boundaries between species more narrowly now than in the past. Mariusm (talk) 12:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Of course, the processes of speciation have not stopped at some moment in the past. As this is continuing, as long as live exists, naturally there exist cases, which are on the brink, i.e. where it is difficult to decide, whether criteria are fulfilled just now, that two species can be distingueshed instead of only one. (Maybe situation would be clearer in some thousand years.) Nature shows quite a lot of situations in between strict barriers and a continuum. In my opinion, all these are arguments against creationists. Anyway, this mysterious "intelligent designer" must have had an extremly chaotic attitude. --Franz Xaver (talk) 12:52, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
See also Wikispecies:Village Pump#Popular-level article on bird taxonomy about the same article further up (currently near the top of this page) ;-) MPF (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2017 (UTC)


Would it be a good idea to include at least some of the more interesting name etymologies for species names? For example Crocodylus porosus is named from its remarkable porosity; if you pour a bucket of water over one, the water drains straight through it, rather than running down the sides. Thoughts? - MPF (talk) 00:02, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

"1 April". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:29, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 :-) MPF (talk) 13:28, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
And I suppose Agra vation Erwin, 1983 is a very aggravating beetle ??? Mariusm (talk) 13:38, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
The poor thing's aggravated because no-one's written its wikispecies page yet! MPF (talk) 14:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done ;-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 14:34, 1 April 2017 (UTC).
Thanks, Tommy on behalf of all the aggravated beetles around here! Mariusm (talk) 14:40, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Salticidus palidenrekensis[edit]

A fake? --Succu (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Commons image in deletion process, author is known from fake creations Burmeister (talk) 16:00, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Neither genus or species shows up in GBIF or Google Scholar. I seriously doubt its existence. Neferkheperre (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
I had my doubts about the claimed taxon early on, and marked the Salticidus palidenrekensis page with a "Validity disputed" template only a few hours after it was created. The Wikispecies IP editor is probably the same person as the logged in Commons user referred to by Burmeister. The IP address is located in Paraguay, and the logged in Commons user page is written entirely in Spanish, among other things mentioning Río Paraguay. Furthermore neither IP nor Commons user seem particularly familiar with the binominal nomenclature, both using leading caps for all parts of all taxon names (including sp. and ssp.) and never in italics. Compare the user page at Commons and the first version of the Salticidus palidenrekensis Wikispecies page for examples. In my opinion the page should be deleted. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 20:59, 2 April 2017 (UTC).
Done! --Franz Xaver (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Deleted at Wikidata too. --Succu (talk) 06:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
By the way, the spider possibly belongs to the genus Frigga (Salticidae), maybe Frigga pratensis. --Franz Xaver (talk) 08:22, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Page formatting[edit]

Something odd gone wrong with the formatting on this page? First paragraph of most new sections is in indented grey boxes with different font. Does it affect any other pages too? - MPF (talk) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

While archiving, User:MABot cut up a pump section (Automating new page creation) with the code words <pre><nowiki> right in the middle, causing undesirable display effects in the following pump sections. I think the cutting location of this bot is very weird... Mariusm (talk) 10:10, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Fixed that, but the pump section Automating new page creation remains cut up in the middle. Mariusm (talk) 10:12, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Puccinia hieracii var. (b.)[edit]

What to do with that page? Index Fungorum does not have such an entry. --Succu (talk) 05:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion, it can be deleted. Anyway, it is not a name under the code of nomenclature (ICN). --Franz Xaver (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Also has a 404 error on the reference link. Andyboorman (talk) 15:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, a Google search for the exact phrase "Puccinia hieracii var. (b.)" only renders two hits, namely the Wikispecies taxon page and this Village pump thread. I have deleted the page, and requested the referring Wikidata entry (Q21380025) to be deleted. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:18, 16 April 2017 (UTC).
Thx. --Succu (talk) 07:52, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Fixing dead links[edit]

A "404" reference link is mentioned in the section currently above this one. We could do with a bot like those used on Wikipedia, that finds such links and substitutes a URL at, where one exists. I will ask one of the bot operators at en.Wikipedia if they can assist, unless there are objections here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:49, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

A good idea according to me, since dead links are fairly common. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC).

Automated taxobox on Catalan Wikipedia[edit]

The Catalan Wikipedia now has a taxobox template: ca:Plantilla:Infotaula d'ésser viu that is populated using data from Wikidata. An example can be seen on: ca:Nautilus praepompilius. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. But it seems it doesn't work when Wikidata has multiple values for parent taxon. If Wikidata adds more parent taxa, articles using this template will see chunks of the taxonomic hierarchy disappear. Plantdrew (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Do you have an example? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:28, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: ca:Heteromeles arbutifolia for one; nothing between order and kingdom, the Wikidata item for the order (d:Q21895) has multiple parents. There are also (not surprisingly) problems when the hierarchy at Wikidata uses minor ranks and/or clades. Wikispecies, and Wikidata all seem to be using clades to some extent for gastropod classification between class and family; the Catalan article on ca:Partula calypso has nothing between family and class. And fungi aren't displaying division/phylum (see ca:Agaricus impudicus); I'm not sure what's causing that (maybe the taxobox expects phylum where Wikidata has division)? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plantdrew (talkcontribs) 16:13, 10 April 2017‎.
Thank you. I've let our Catalan Wikipedia colleagues know. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:20, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll try to check where the problem or problems could be. First, I think it could be due to some redundancies in the field P171 (Example). Second, we selected only some taxonomic ranks which, for example, we didn't include division. But it may be something else. Thanks for the input. Paucabot (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Further explanations in cawiki thread by Vriullop. Paucabot (talk) 09:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Sophie Lutterlough[edit]

A recent collaboration with the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History resulted in an article on their first African-American entomologist, Sophie Lutterlough. Apparently she "co-identified 40 type specimens" and "in 1979, a mite [Pygmephorus lutterloughae] was named in her honor". We have nothing on her, or the mite. Can anybody help me to fix that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:44, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia entry. There are also entries at Smithsonian's website. Neferkheperre (talk) 14:14, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. That's the one I linked to... Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:29, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Adding Subgenus to species names[edit]

User: PeterR isn't obeying the decision made a long time ago not to add the subgenus to the species names in the form of Genus (Subgenus) species but to leave it as Genus species. Adding the subgenus to the names causes many problems including name-duplicates, search difficulties etc. The subgenus is to be included in the hierarchy-ladder but not in the name itself. I worked hard in the past to get rid of the subgenus names, but now I'm not able to convince PeterR to stop adding them. We need to make a decision on how to handle this. Mariusm (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

@PeterR, Mariusm: As can be seen on his talk page, PeterR is claiming, the names would be invalid without the subgenus added. (I can hardly believe.) So, what is the zoological code telling on this matter? --Franz Xaver (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
If Wikispecies has more than article for the same species they are marked as Wikimedia duplicated page at Wikidata. --Succu (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2017 (UTC) PS: query. --Succu (talk) 21:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Tens of thousands of species are currently named at WS without their subgenus. Does PeterR propose to rename them all ? Mariusm (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
See the discussion here Mariusm (talk) 15:07, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I can't find anything definite in ICZN code, except that subgenera are recognized and treated. Customarily in literature they are rendered as "Genus (Subgenus) species", which must be dealt with as painlessly as possible here. Subgenera are frequently upgraded to full genera, necessitating changes of some type. Page titles of "Genus (Subgenus)" won't work, too much changing. Yesterday, I ran Zaragoza, 2017, which elevated three diverse subgenera of Chthonius to full genus. Being semi-helpful, I altered subgenera species lists, created taxon templates, and adjusted Chthonius species overview. When I started this, I re-checked and discovered about 100 of these species which were filled out as Chthonius without reference to subgenera. Most of today will now be spent correcting these now orphaned pages. There needs to be some sort of definite and consistent treatment of subgenera and species thereof. I have some ideas, let me get through fixing this, they will crystallize. Neferkheperre (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Article 6.1 of the ICZN code says: 6.1. Names of subgenera. The scientific name of a subgenus, when used with a binomen or trinomen, must be interpolated in parentheses between the generic name and the specific name; it is not counted as one of the words in the binomen or trinomen. It must begin with an upper-case letter. [my bold] Clearly the subgenus is considered optional and not mandatory.
  • Wikipidia article Subgenus says: In the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature, a subgeneric name can be used independently or included in a species name, in parentheses, placed between the generic name and the specific epithet: e.g. the tiger cowry of the Indo-Pacific, Cypraea (Cypraea) tigris Linnaeus, which belongs to the subgenus Cypraea of the genus Cypraea. However, it is not mandatory, or even customary, when giving the name of a species, to include the subgeneric name. [my bold]
The question is: Are Toledano & Schmidt the authors from Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai or Bembidion smetanai. The species label says Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai. Yes I have made a redirect from Bembidion smetanai to Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai, because some Bembidion species are transferred to Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya). If you add category Author taxa and category museum this have to be allways the original combination. I'm not afraid for a little bit work more, because there are thousands of species with subgenera in species.wikipedia.PeterR (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: No, sorry, this is not the way to act. This is anarchy, where anyone can do as he deems fit without considering the consensus. This is interfering with the work of others and causing unnecessary representation-conflicts. The species can be perfectly represented including the respective subgenus in the text but not in the page's name. The page's name must allways be Genus species and I'm asking you again to comply with the consensus and stop introducing page-names which include the subgenus. Mariusm (talk) 13:05, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@PeterR: See for example Bembidion smetanai: You got: (1) In the hierarchy ladder there's "Subgenus: Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya)" and (2) in the NAME section there's "Bembidion (Bembidionetolitzkya) smetanai Toledano & Schmidt, 2008". Why isn't it enough for you by way of representation that you're so eager to add the subgenus also to the page's name? Mariusm (talk) 13:18, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This is not an act. I follow fauna europaea see [[2]]. This side is created by 45 expert authors. I shall someone ask why they add species with subgenus and after which ICZN code. If we add with author taxa you have to do it after original combination, this discussion we had before. If we don't add after original describtions I stop with author taxa and museum. PeterR (talk) 09:16, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
  • My view is that we should list subgenera on the genus page and create subgenus pages. However, the species pages are best kept binomial. See the treatment of Polyommatus and Polyommatus (Polyommatus) to see what I mean. There is a big benefit to retaining binomial species pages, as this is how most people search for a particular taxon. Accassidy (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
      • @Accassidy: See [3]. Polyommatus (Polyommatus) icarus is valid after Fauna europaea. Who am I to discuss the information from 102 experts and I have hundreds of bulletins with original descriptions with subgenera. PeterR (talk) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
This is how I have been handling this. Neferkheperre (talk) 16:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)


Over ten years ago, Haplorhini was renamed to Haplorrhini with a redirect left behind, assumedly as an alternative spelling. For consistency, a case might be made to reverse this to make "Haplorrhini" the alternative and "Haplorhini" the main species page after reading why the en-Wiki article was renamed on its discussion page.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  22:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Note: This was recently corrected in Wiktionary.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  22:45, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

False information?[edit]

I have here a species with lectotype Ferrerianus biimpressus. The lectotype is all ways designated from the original combination, in this case Aphodius beiimpressus. If I look to this species it looks for me that the lectotype is from Ferrerianus biimpressus. In my opinion you have described after the lectotype: Lectotype Aphodius beiimpressus designated by Dellacasa, Dellacasa & Gordon, 2007: 3.

And this is the agreement between Mariusm and me. Diphaulacosoma bicolor and Phygasia bicolor. PeterR (talk) 12:38, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

@PeterR: The lectotype indeed bears the name of Aphodius biimpressus (which is thus inscribed on the label at the repository by the original researcher) but it is designated to serve Ferrerianus biimpressus which is the current accepted name. I see no reason to make a separate page for (the invalid) Aphodius biimpressus as you imply only to accommodate the lectotype... This seems to me an unnecessary overkill and overreaching pedantry. I don't consider the lectotype data to be false information as you state. Mariusm (talk) 15:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
What I understand is that the lectotype is designated for preservation of the original combination. PeterR (talk) 09:23, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
A museum-type labeled under its original combination which isn't the current accepted combination doesn't necessitate the creation of a separate page (for an invalid name) for the sole purpose of manifesting this fact. Mariusm (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2017 (UTC).
The original combination is the basic for all research. The new name is a result after this research and can later change in a other name after for instance DNA control. The original combination is the author taxa name. The new names are transferred by others. PeterR (talk) 10:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Arabidopsis or Cardaminopsis?[edit]

On the page for the genus Arabidopsis the link for Arabidopsis arenosa redirects to Cardaminopsis arenosa, however is not listed there as a synonym. Any botanist here who knows which combination is current and correct? –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:23, 22 April 2017 (UTC).

Arabidopsis is correct – see e.g. doi: 10.1199/tab.0001 or Euro+Med Plantbase. --Franz Xaver (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Thanks also to Andyboorman for updating the Arabidopsis arenosa page. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 13:39, 22 April 2017 (UTC).
You're welcome Andyboorman (talk) 15:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Pending changes necessary?[edit]

Most or some pages have been vandalized, like Hippopotamus amphibius, Haloquadratum walsbyi, Euphorbia leuconeura, Aphyocharax anisitsi, and some others, especially on the Main Page of Wikispecies. I wonder whether "pending changes"-like protection is necessary. Well... the backlogging can be potentially huge if PC is enacted. However, I figure that the community of the project is limited. I thought about taking this to admins' noticeboard, but I would like your thoughts first. --George Ho (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

You have to balance the positives and negatives. In this case, the negatives will certainly outweight any positives from enacting pending changes. Almost all edits are constructive and would take away our time from editing and creating pages just to vetting pages. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with OhanaUnited, cases of vandalism are relatively few and quickly dealt with. Andyboorman (talk) 08:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
That's my opinion as well. Vandalism is fairly uncommon and almost always dealt with within the hour, most often minutes. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 09:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC).

Accepted or Valid[edit]

What is the different between Accepted and Valid? PeterR (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The conceptual meaning is reciprocally matching yet Accepted has the inference of the species (name) being accepted as valid by the authorities' majority while Valid is a more ambiguous term, rearing the question of valid by whom?. Mariusm (talk) 10:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
This is clear for me now. So if I have a list from Fauna europaea with Taxonomic status: valid than it is an accepted name, like Polyommatus (Agrodiaetus) admetus. [4]. accepted by at least 102 authors. PeterR (talk) 10:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I would also suggest that, in botany anyway, to be Accepted requires a majority of authorities to be content in using a Valid name. Validity does not automatically assume acceptance or very rarely vice versa! Validity is a function of publication under relevant articles. Acceptance is what then happens out in the wild, so to speak. Just have a look at Corbichoniaceae for example. Andyboorman (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
As far as I see, there is less difference between "accepted" and "valid" in zoology. Being an "accepted" taxon depends on a consensus of experts/authorities, who accept a certain taxonomic concept, i.e. a circumscription of a taxon, as correct. For example, there is consensus, that a horse is different from a donkey, although they can be crossed. Given a certain circumscription of a taxon, according to the respective code only one name can be correct, which in zoological terminology is called "valid". In botany, as far as it concerns acceptance of a taxon, the situation is the same. However, the botanical code (ICN) uses the term "valid" in a sense different from zoology. According to Art. 6, "valid publication of names is publication in accordance with ....", which means, that "validly published names" in botany are more or less the same as "available names" in zoology. And the "valid" name of an accepted taxon in zoology would be the same as the "correct" name of an accepted taxon in botany. --Franz Xaver (talk) 13:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)