Shortcuts: WS:V, WS:VP

Wikispecies:Village Pump

From Wikispecies
Jump to navigation Jump to search

WikiSpecies notext-invert.svg Welcome to the village pump of Wikispecies.

This page is a place to ask questions or discuss the project. If you need an admin, please see the Administrators' Noticeboard. If you need to solicit feedback, see Request for Comment. Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar). Use the Wikispecies IRC channel for real-time chat.

If you're going to critique the work of fellow editors (blatant vandals excepted) in your post on this page, you should notify them, either by mentioning them with a {{Ping}} template, or with a post on their talk page.

If you insert links to Wikipedia pages in your comments, don't forget the leading colon (:) before the wiki language code (including when you reference a remote user page instead of using a local signature), otherwise it will generate spurious interwiki links collected in the sidebar instead of in the expected location within the discussion. Thanks.

Village pump in other languages:

1 (2004-09-21/2005-01-05) 2 (2005-01-05/2005-08-23)
3 (2005-08-24/2005-12-31) 4 (2006-01-01/2005-05-31)
5 (2006-06-01/2006-12-16) 6 (2006-12-17/2006-12-31)
7 (2007-01-01/2007-02-28) 8 (2007-03-01/2007-04-30)
9 (2007-05-01/2007-08-31) 10 (2007-09-01/2007-10-31)
11 (2007-11-01/2007-12-31) 12 (2008-01-01/2008-02-28)
13 (2008-03-01/2008-04-28) 14 (2008-04-29/2008-06-30)
15 (2008-07-01/2008-09-30) 16 (2008-10-01/2008-12-25)
17 (2008-12-26/2009-02-28) 18 (2009-03-01/2009-06-30)
19 (2009-07-01/2009-12-31) 20 (2010-01-01/2010-06-30)
21 (2010-07-01/2010-12-31) 22 (2011-01-01/2011-06-30)
23 (2011-07-01/2011-12-31) 24 (2012-01-01/2012-12-31)
25 (2013-01-01/2013-12-31) 26 (2014-01-01/2014-12-31)
27 (2015-01-01/2015-01-31) 28 (2015-02-01/2015-02-28)
29 (2015-02-28/2015-04-29) 30 (2015-04-29/2015-07-19)
31 (2015-07-19/2015-09-23) 32 (2015-09-23/2015-11-21)
33 (2015-11-21/2015-12-31) 34 (2016-01-01/2016-04-17)
35 (2016-03-22/2016-05-01) 36 (2016-05-01/2016-07-12)
37 (2016-07-13/2016-09-30) 38 (2016-10-01/2016-12-04)
39 (2016-12-04/2017-01-17) 40 (2017-01-18/2017-01-28)
41 (2017-01-29/2017-02-13) 42 (2017-02-14/2017-03-21)
43 (2017-03-20/2017-08-11) 44 (2017-08-10/2017-12-07)
45 (2017-12-08/2018-01-08) 46 (2018-01-19/2018-03-11)
47 (2018-03-11/2018-09-11) 48 (2018-09-01/2019-02-17)
49 (2019-02-22/2019-...)

A lot of data on species at russian Lomonosov Moscow State University resource[edit]


Thanks a lot for your work! World wouldnt be such a great place without wiki resources. I don't know how to contribute here, I'm not in biology at all, but i just found this data source.

Go here, pess ESC, then swtich to EN at the top right corner, for example mark the "Specimens with photo only" checbox on the popup window, click "OK". Then at the top ringt corner change a "Rows" to 1-20000 (max) and I bet you will be impressed how many rare species photos are availible there.

I bielive you could gather much more usefull information there, some of it choul be translated. Maybe somebody could contact MSU, but even if not, somehow we have to save this content before a possible isolation of russian net.

P.S. Other depositaries:

Thanks again, and sorry me for breaking your commetns publishing rules.

Regards, @sntxerror. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) 22:22, 12 April 2019‎.

Translations of template:Inc[edit]

The translations of template {{Inc}} are missing, since User:Fagus edited the template. On 24 April 2019, I asked him to repair the template, but he did not answer and left the template without localization. Could someone else please make the necessary corrections? Thanks, --Thiotrix (talk) 12:11, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Done. Fagus' edits are very often questionable. Mariusm (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't like your attitude. --Fagus (talk) 17:41, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
@Fagus: It's your attitude which needs readjustment. You fiddled with a widely-used template employed in virtually every author page, and failed to respond to a request posed to you in this regard on your talk page. Can you explain what was the purpose of your modification of this template? Mariusm (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
No need for discussion. I'm not interfering. --Fagus (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


After changes at KEW the {{IPNI}} is no longer in correct function.
Could an expert install and integrate from Wikidata: #property:P961. (Like {{IPNI standard form}})
What I mean: as test here: Bobartia Orchi (talk) 15:39, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

P.S....or of course another way.
Not sure what is expected, as the template works by correctly producing the search result in the new site format and also displays on the WS taxon page as expected. The new IPNI site is a lot less clunky than the old IMHO. Andyboorman (talk) 17:51, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
...second test. Orchi (talk) 14:56, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Template:Authority control for species?[edit]

I just separated three database links away from the references on a page. Mostly, while such links (CoL, WoRMS, Tropicos, IPNI, GRIN etc. etc.) are relevant, we do not typically use them as sources. Not when the actual relevant source is the literature material where the names are, y'know, coined and discussed. As such the databases are "sources" only in so far as they need to be discussed on the page (e.g. to point out errors or confusions), and I don't usually list them at all in pages I create.

Would it be more useful to have a version of {{Authority control}} tailored specifically for species that generates a table of the relevant external links and removes even the need to figure out a name for such a section? "External links" does not really feel appropriate to me. Circeus (talk) 21:07, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

That exists on en.Wikipedia, as en:Template:Taxonbar, "used on approximately 390,000 pages". I can import it if there is consensus to do so.Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm all for this. Ideally it would also include CoF (i.e. the online database of Eschmeyer's Catalog of Fishes) but unfortunately I can't even find a Wikidata property for that. CoF is comparable to the much more frequently cited FishBase database (P938) however it's often a lot better updated, plus contrary to most FishBase records include information about type localities, holotypes, type repositories, links to protologues etc. Here at Wikispecies we currently use the {{CoF}} template instead; please see the "Links" section on the Devario leptos page for an example. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 00:23, 18 July 2019 (UTC).
A "taxonbar" with an overview of some relevant databases could be useful here, but I think the taxonbar of en-wiki is highly "overloaded" with its multiple links, even growing with each regional database that will be linked to Wikidata (see [1] for an example). By the way, in some cases, Tropicos and IPNI can really be used as sources for type material of genera or species. The CoL has different versions for each year that differ considerably, and it is mostly not linked on Wikidata (at least for those plant groups I am editing). --Thiotrix (talk) 07:16, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
en-wiki taxonbar is getting "overloaded" in some cases, but WikiSpecies can just remove support for the less relevant databases. The en-wiki taxonbar doesn't show every taxon ID that's on Wikidata (national taxon databases from non-English speaking countries aren't included at en-wiki). Catalog of Fishes doesn't have a property on Wikidata yet; it just needs to be proposed (as {{CoF}} states, "the id number for an individual record does not seem to be easily available using just the Catalog of Fishes..." which may be reason why a CoF Wikidata property doesn't exist yet). Catalog of Life identifiers can change between releases, which makes it difficult to have a Wikidata property. Also, Wikidata inherited a large number of garbage taxon records from CoL via the Waray/Cebuano/Swedish Wikipedias, and the active taxonomy editors on Wikidata have a rather dim view of CoL. Plantdrew (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
On the same topic, you will be happy to know that GBIF import the external identifiers for taxa from Wikidata, see at bottom of a taxon page. Christian Ferrer (talk) 17:49, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps we should draft a list of which databases are the most useful / relevant for our purposes (e.g. IPNI, AlgaeBase), and decide whether that list is of adequate length? Then provide a Wikidata link for access to any additional databases. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Good idea. See also {{Global}} which is transcluded on more than 17,600 pages but rather crude. Replacing it with an "Authority control"-type template linked to Wikidata would probably be a good thing. Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 17:26, 31 July 2019 (UTC).

Difference between certain templates[edit]

So, I'm working on a documentation template that will cover everything in Category:Templates for linking taxa and it's come to my attention that for some reason the templates {{Ordolast}}, {{Infraordolast}} , {{Famlast}} and {{Subfamlast}} include an extra hardcoded linebreak that other -last templates do not.

At first blush, this line break seems superfluous, but obviously I am not about to casually edit some of the most widely-used templates on the site! Is this linebreak necessary for some aspect of display? It seems odd that most -last templates can be freely used in running text, except these four... Especially when there is a separate {{Gbr}}. Circeus (talk) 00:28, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Just a quick note, since I'm about to log out for the night. The {{Gbr}} template can't be used for higher taxon ranks than genus, since it also adds italics. However when needed it can be substituted by the {{Fbr}} template. It works in the same way except without adding italics, hence can be used for family rank and higher. (That's also the reasoning behind the names of the templates: {{gbr}} for genera and subgenera, and {{fbr}} for familia, subfamilia, and superfamilia.) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 01:07, 18 July 2019 (UTC).
I'd gotten that XD (though I admittedly failed to notice the fbr template. Moved it into the category), all code-compliant ranks below family have templates for them (as far as I can tell) and gbr is not part of the higher-level set that are actually interchangeable, so no issue there. What I still can't quite puzzle out is what purpose the linebreak in the four templates in question is supposed to serve. Circeus (talk) 01:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
1. The different {{'Taxonrank'}} and {{'Taxonranklast'}} templates are more or less exclusively used within lists in the Taxonavigation sections on Taxon pages. The reason for adding a trailing linebreak to the {{…last}} templates is pretty straightforward. Without it you would have to add a <br/> linebreak after the last taxon (per rank) in each and every Taxonavigation section. In my opinion it's a lot neater to instead include the linebreaks in the templates. This keeps the wiki code in the Taxonavigation sections free of HTML, making them a lot cleaner and more legible. I don't think the linebreaks within these templates pose a problem, since the templates are more or less never used in running text outside of the Taxonavigation sections.
The point is more why is it so crucial only for those two taxa levels? If we're going to have a huge family of templates that are crucial to taxonavigation, I think it's sensible to expect them all to behave in the same frickin' basic way! Circeus (talk) 13:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I agree. The point is that the different templates were created by different authors. All of the above mentioned templates were created by me, with the exception of {{Subfamlast}}. Changing them afterwards (and/or the other similar Taxonav templates) will require us to add or remove linebreaks to/from all of the taxon pages. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 19:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC).
2. Please also take {{Infraclass}} and {{Infraclasslast}} into consideration, which for some reason aren't listed in Category:Formatting templates (nor in Category:Templates for linking taxa). Also, there may be more like them. Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 01:47, 18 July 2019 (UTC).
Thanks for that. I'll be honest: I can't be bothered to check every single damn rank @.@ so my list was entirely based off what was in Category:Templates for linking taxa. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Circeus (talkcontribs) 13:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC).
I fully understand that. It's still odd that those templates doesn't show up in the categories though. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 19:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC).
If that's what you mean, {{Infraclass}} and the whole lot are not in Category:Formatting templates because I filtered them down in Category:Templates for linking taxa. I may yet create a "Category: Templates to generate taxonavigation". Circeus (talk) 14:54, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Consensus vote[edit]

Because those conversation have a tendency to peter out and nothing happening:

Is there consensus to regularize the templates {{Ordolast}}, {{Infraordolast}}, {{Famlast}}, and {{Subfamlast}} by removing the hardcoded linebreak and using a bot to add it in articles and template where needed?

I write "where needed" because it is only needed in some of the taxonavigation uses, i.e. those where the template/list doesn't end at that level (because if that rank is the last item, it is followed by a header anyway). Circeus (talk) 14:54, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose In general they are the mid point of a list of taxa. I would like to see the line break in all such templates not just a selected few. Andyboorman (talk) 15:47, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
@Andyboorman: After each and every last-list-template there must be the ==Name== section which automatically adds a line brake. So why do you need two line breaks??Mariusm (talk) 16:02, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Also {{Taxonav}} (which really ought to be used more) usually breaks off right before family/superfamily, so a break after whichever rank is right before is again not useful. Also, note that there is a separate {{Fbr}} already. Circeus (talk) 16:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
How about this one Dodonaeoideae there are many like this. Andyboorman (talk) 17:29, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
@Andyboorman: What about Dodonaeoideae??? It has the ==Name== after {{Glast}}. On top of that it has an empty line after {{Glast}}. This together amounts to 2 line breaks. The empty line is present for wiki-code clarity only and isn't necessary at all. There's absolutely no need to add another line break into the code of {{Glast}}. Mariusm (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I was trying to highlight {{Triblast}} which has no break, but is followed by the list of genera on this and many more taxon pages, therefore requiring an added line break. This could be the case for family, subfamily subgenera, section and.... as well. What is the point of this discussion and vote? Andyboorman (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
@Andyboorman: Well, in the case of two ranks being listed on the same page, the proper way to achieve it is by a separator between the ranks and an "overview" indication. See my modification of Dodonaeoideae. Mariusm (talk) 15:13, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
@Mariusm: That is not the proper way it is your way and I am not prepared to re-edit thousands of pages to conform to your version of taxon page formats without a full discussion and consensus here on the pump. Sorry I have reverted your edit on Dodonaeoideae, please do not make this an edit war between two admins, we know where that leads. Andyboorman (talk) 16:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Very well, I'm dropping out of this discussion. Mariusm (talk) 15:11, 25 July 2019 (UTC)


So, I stumblred across another @Fagus: creation. This is used only on authorities and is an autotranslate... for the word "Turkish". Why that word specifically when the rest of the page is in English, I do not know, but I'm also seriously doubting we want this to be how we proceed (assuming we decide the author pages must be autotranslated to begin with).

SO I'm bringing this up for discussion as to whether this sort of things should be kept. Circeus (talk) 21:36, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I think translation of these descriptive elements has low priority for the project. Extended to all nationalities and to all grammatical properties of the different languages it will get complicated and time-consuming. Maybe taking the language-specific description from Wikidata could be a solution eaiser to achieve. --RLJ (talk) 11:04, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Ask @Fagus: to delete and remove or justify in relation to a major project aimed at wider the development of language specific templates? Andyboorman (talk) 20:40, 19 July 2019 (UTC):
you can delete.. --Fagus (talk) 17:11, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Done. All instances were replaced. Circeus (talk) 14:42, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

The code decoded[edit]

For the botanists among us, just published: the second edition of The code decoded by Nick Turland: . Open access, as PDF document or online. Recommended. --RLJ (talk) 11:04, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I'll have to take a look. Wonder if it deals with my biggest code-related bugbear (unlikely). Circeus (talk) 18:40, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Which is? Intrigued! Andyboorman (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
The code allows for lectotypification of a generic or infrageneric rank by merely naming a species (art. 10 Note 2, which should really be placed after 10.2, not 10.4...). Because there is no requirement whatsoever as to the typification of that specific name, doing so does not actually designates a specimen as type of that supraspecific name (art. 10.1), it merely asserts that whatever the eventual type of the designated species is or will be the type of the higher division.
It is sloppy and flies in the face of every other rules rlated to types in the code. As such, in my opinion, any such designation made without full and direct reference to an effective typification of the asserted type species should not be itself effective. Circeus (talk) 15:31, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
I see where you are coming from, but I assumed it was down to pragmatism, as one would think that a legitimate species used to define the type of a genus has already been typified under the earlier articles. Indeed types of genera can change over time and to require a completely new typification when there is a change in synonymy seems superfluous. What do I know! Andyboorman (talk) 18:34, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
It's not about asking for a new typification so much as making sure the type you are designating exists in the first place. It's entirely possible to designate as type species a species for which all material is lost and no neotype has been designated so that you are really not designating anything at all as the type of the genus, which is what I assert flies in the face of every other type-related requirement in the code. Circeus (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Wow, can't believe no one uploaded it to c:. It's there now: c:File:The Code Decoded (2nd Edition).pdf. Nice find! —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:23, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Small change to Help:Vernacular names section[edit]

I don't think it's very radical but I wanted to bring attention to it: (koavf)TCM 21:16, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

It would be better to just eliminate the guidance "only include one name per language". It's pretty rare (across all taxa) for one single vernacular name to be so widely used in a particular language to make it unnecessary to mention any other vernacular names. That doesn't mean dozens of obscure vernacular names should be listed. But if there are a few vernacular names that are quite frequently used, they should be mentioned.
The one name per language bit was added (see this diff) by a editor who has some peculiar ideas about vernacular names, and it is only one part of the undiscussed radical changes they made to push their agenda. Wikispecies should not be in the business of promoting a single vernacular name as "THE OFFICIAL" common name. Plantdrew (talk) 17:03, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I think you are right, just on the grounds of the English language, where they could be a VN for the UK and differing ones for US, Australia, New Zealand and so on. Andyboorman (talk) 17:16, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The same is true for de vernacular names, which are often different in German, Austrian and Swiss official Flora works. --Thiotrix (talk) 17:34, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Editing News #1—July 2019[edit]

18:32, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Panicum maximum Jacq.[edit]


I was searching for Panicum maximum Jacq. but didn’t find anything here. The English wikipedia (and also the wikidata page) suggests that it’s a synonym of Megathyrsus maximus. Is this correct?. Sommerluk (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@Sommerluk: Uncertain. Urochloa maxima (Jacq.) R.D.Webster, Austral. Paniceae: 241 (1987) could be the correct combination (WCSP) or indeed Panicum maximum Jacq. (Hassler) and there again the Australians prefer Megathyrsus maximus (APC). Then there is Tropicos, which is messy when it comes to accepted combinations. Google scholar hits for 2018 onwards show all three combinations in use. One plant-one name indeed! WS can not be much of a help as we can not make a judgement which secondary source is to be used and the scientific literature is ambiguous! Good luck (add laughter emojis)! Andyboorman (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
I would have no qualms having three cross-referenced entries noting that the literature current disagrees on the species' placement. Much better than to not have a page at all just because it would force us to make an editorial choice. Circeus (talk) 03:58, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
I agree totally and this always has been my approach. Andyboorman (talk) 06:53, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Isn't this what the "disputed" template is for, or have we forgotten that? ... Betweenfootandshoe (talk) 06:55, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Yes and no. Andyboorman (talk) 06:59, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
To clarify (at least as I understand it): the template was (at least originally) intended for cases of editorial disagreement (i.e. if you argued it should be listed at the family level with the pagename "Megathyrsus" maximus and I was arguing for Panicum maximum), and if we have template specifically dedicated to the case where a species' placement is unclear in the literature itself, I don't know of it offhand. Supraspecific ranks are easier as they can be listed as incertae sedis on the appropriate higher taxon page (or with two alternate classification in its taxonavigation), but for species, this problem affects the pagename itself. Circeus (talk) 01:07, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Plants of the World Online ( which follows WCSP uses Urochloa maxima as the current name for this species. Wikispecies could elect to follow POWO, while noting the alternative usages, or maybe it has another policy which would override this?? I know POWO may sometimes be one opinion among several, and in some groups is lacking content, but in general I try to follow it for my own work, unless I think there is an issue with POWO being out-of-date or otherwise incorrect. Cheers - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:09, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Genus (subgenus) species[edit]

I remember the topic coming up a few times, but as I mostly deal in botanical names, I have not paid attention to it all that much. Was there any consensus determined regarding pagenames of the form Genus (subgenus) species and Genus (subgenus) species subspecies? this is again related to my work on Template:Taxon linking templates. If these pagenames are formally disapproved, I won't list the templates used to link to them there. Circeus (talk) 01:15, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

The (subgenus) part should not to be included in the species/subspecies page-name. Mariusm (talk) 07:24, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Link to discussion. Burmeister (talk) 12:38, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

How many animal species are on Wikispecies?[edit]

Are there any available estimates of the number of animal species included in the Wikispecies project? Thank you! Scientific29 (talk) 04:44, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

My estimation is that 70% of WS pages are valid species (the rest are other ranks, authors, repositories etc.). This means 683,441 X 70% = 478,000 species. If we make a rough assumption that Animalia/(Plants + Fungi) = 4/1 then the number of Animalia on WS is 478,000 X 4/5 = 383,000 Mariusm (talk) 15:22, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Thank you and great idea on estimating this! I used the random page feature to check 30 pages and found 20 species pages, so your estimate of 70% is pretty close. I didn't actually count animal species, but that number seems like a reasonable estimate. Scientific29 (talk) 18:30, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
This is really a good reason for valid and accepted species categories. That answer could be derived in seconds, and constantly automatically updated. Neferkheperre (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
It's almost certainly possible to answer that with a Wikidata query; ask on d:WD:RAQ. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:13, 3 August 2019 (UTC)


Can anyone help me to check validity of scientific names from Government Regulation of the Republic of Indonesia No.7/1999 On Preserving Flora And Fauna? This the list:

The list not yet complete. (Finished for mammals and birds) Rex Aurorum (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

@Rex Aurorum: See my assessment of your Birds list, following IOC current taxonomy.--Hector Bottai (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
@Hector Bottai: Thanks. I mean scientific names on that list valid as synonym or not. Probably there are few mistake as such typo and overcorrecting. Sorry, if my English difficult to understand. Rex Aurorum (talk) 19:54, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
@Rex Aurorum: For this service I would suggest you check names against the Catalogue of Life (if you have not already done so of course), which is a more "authoritative" source than Wikispecies in that the content comes from a number of controlled partner databases that claim complete coverage of their included taxa in the taxonomic world, also overall will be more complete than Wikispecies. You can check single names here: . There is also a facility to upload a list of names and get a response of valid names vs. synonyms, etc. although I have no experience with this. However if names are misspelled they probably will not get a match. For this you could try my own database "IRMNG" via e.g. (remember to uncheck the "genera" [only] box if you are searching for a species name), which also includes near matching, however the species component of IRMNG is less complete than Cat. of Life and also not necessarily up-to-date so far as valid names vs. synonyms is concerned. Nevertheless it may help you to get the correct spelling for some names which you could then re-test against Cat. of Life. Regards Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:01, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
OK, I tried your first name "Anoa depressicornis" on both Cat. of Life and IRMNG and immediately ran into a problem: the name does not appear on either list in that form. It turns out that Anoa is accepted only as a subgenus name (see so you would have to search under the current generic name (without subgenus) which is Bubalus depressicornis and is held on both systems. Note also that if there was a minor misspelling in the specific epithet (e.g. depressicornus instead of depressicornis) you would get a result on IRMNG (as a near match), but not on Cat. of Life. That's the present situation in the world of name searching (also, if all else fails, Google is your friend...) Tony 1212 (talk) 22:14, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Out of interest, I searched for just genus = Anoa on Cat. of Life (no results) and on IRMNG, which says: Anoa Smith, 1827 accepted as Bubalus Smith, 1827, which is better than nothing. The cited synonymy comes from a list extracted from Mammal Species of the World 3, which does not explicitly deal with subgenera in this instance (if ever). Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 23:14, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't mind checking the mammals for you - here goes. [CoL] indicates my source for the current/valid name [Cat. of Life].
  • (Mammals)
  • Anoa depressicornis - valid name Bubalus depressicornis (C. H. Smith, 1827) [CoL] (different combination, synonymy from other sources)
  • Anoa quarlesi - valid name Bubalus quarlesi (Ouwens, 1910) [CoL] (different combination, synonymy from other sources)
  • Bos sondaicus - valid name Bos javanicus d'Alton, 1823 [CoL] (synonymy from other sources)
  • Capricornis sumatrensis - valid name Capricornis sumatraensis (Bechstein, 1799) [CoL] (epithet misspelling)
  • Cervus kuhli - valid name Axis kuhlii (Temminck, 1836) [CoL] (epithet misspelling plus different combination)
    • Note: this taxon is currently listed in Wikispecies as Hyelaphus kuhlii with a reference to MSW3 (no discussion), however in MSW3 the genus name is given as Axis and it is mentioned in passing that Hyelaphus is considered a valid subgenus. Hyelaphus was elevated to a full genus by subsequent work e.g. Pitraabut et al., 2004, see, but this is not presently used in Catalogue of Life (which gets its mammal taxonomy from ITIS). So you can make a choice as to which name to use, I guess...
  • Dolphinidae - valid name Delphinidae [CoL] (misspelling)
  • Elephas indicus - valid name Elephas maximus indicus Cuvier, 1798 [Col] (different rank)
  • Felis marmorota - valid name Pardofelis marmorata (Martin, 1837) [CoL] (different combination, synonymy from other sources)
  • Felis planiceps - valid name Prionailurus planiceps (Vigors and Horsfield, 1827) [CoL] (different combination, synonymy from other sources)
  • Felis viverrinus - valid name Prionailurus viverrinus (Bennett, 1833) [CoL] (different combination, synonymy from other sources)
  • Macaca brunnescens - valid name Macaca ochreata brunnescens (Matschie, 1901) [Col] (different rankHyelaphu
  • Macrogalidea musschenbroeki - valid name Macrogalidia musschenbroekii (Schlegel, 1877) [CoL] (epithet misspelling)
  • Neofelis nebulusa - valid name Neofelis nebulosa (Griffith, 1821) [CoL] (epithet misspelling)
  • Presbitys frontata - valid name Presbytis frontata (Müller, 1838) [CoL] (genus misspelling)
  • Presbitys rubicunda - valid name Presbytis rubicunda (Müller, 1838) [CoL] (genus misspelling)
  • Presbitys aygula - valid name apparently Presbytis comata (Desmarest, 1822) [CoL] - MSW3 has P. aygula "of various authors" in the synonymy of P. comata; Nijman, 1997 says comata is "formerly aygula".
  • Presbitys potenziani - valid name Presbytis potenziani (Bonaparte, 1856) [CoL] (genus misspelling)
  • Presbitys thomasi - valid name Presbytis thomasi (Collett, 1893) [CoL] (genus misspelling)
  • Prochidna bruijni - misspelling for Proechidna, valid name Zaglossus bruijni (Peters and Doria, 1876) [CoL] (different combination, synonymy from other sources) although according to, correct spelling of the epithet is bruijnii.

Regards - Tony Rees Tony 1212 (talk) 08:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Panorpodes paradoxus or paradoxa?[edit]

We currently have a taxon page named Panorpodes paradoxa and another one called Panorpodes paradoxus. I guess one of them should be merged into the other, but which one? Wikidata lists them both: Q5407361 (P. paradoxa) and Q10616384 (P. paradoxus). –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 21:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC).

  • If you look at the WP links, most of the Panorpodes paradoxa (Q5407361) link to Panorpodes apicalis. From that, I gather these should not be merged, as P. paradoxa is presumably a later homonym of P. paradoxus and had its name changed. It's not a good idea to guess when merging. But note that entomology is not my field, so I don't know for certain either, but I do see that an anon made changes to one of the entries post-creation, and would recommend a bit of poking around from someone who knows where to look. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
The original publication of Panorpodes is here:, and contains only the (new) species P. paradoxa [clearly the original spelling]. The only reason I can see that someone might later use the spelling paradoxus would be if they decided the original genus was masculine, not feminine, and M'Lachlan's original spelling was in need of correction (if you look at the ITIS record for Panorpodes,, most of the terminations are masculine - but these could be in error as well). Need a better expert than me (on Mecoptera) in this case... Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
ICZN Code, Article, states: "A compound genus-group name ending in the suffix -ites, -oides, -ides, -odes, or -istes is to be treated as masculine unless its author, when establishing the name, stated that it had another gender or treated it as such by combining it with an adjectival species-group name in another gender form." From this it would seem that Panorpodes is feminine since its type species (by monotypy) was given a feminine ending... Again, just my impression from a quick initial look. Tony 1212 (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
FWIW, in this publication Miyamoto seems to treat P. paradoxa as a synonym of P. paradoxus: [2]. Korg (talk) 00:09, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Noted, Korg, although if it is the same "name" with just the termination changed it is not "really" a synonym - just an alternative orthography... Anyway: I checked Penney & Byers, Check-List of the Mecoptera of the World (1979), available at, and they use paradoxa as well as other feminine endings (decorata, pulchra) so it seems certain that in their mind at least, the genus is feminine. Thus, the masculine terminations shown in ITIS and used by a subset of recent workers e.g. paradoxus for paradoxa look incorrect to me.
Just to reiterate: paradoxa and paradoxus are the same taxon (same author, year, work) and the WS pages for them should indeed be combined - in my view under paradoxa, the original spelling and consistent with the genus being feminine under ICZN Code, Article as cited above. Panorpodes apicalis is listed separately as a good species in Penney & Byers, it dates from Miyake, 1910 so there is no (normal) way it could take precedence over Panorpodes paradoxa (/-um) which is the type species of the genus and dates from 1875, even if apicalis was subsequently synonymized with paradoxa (which does not seem to be the case). Tony 1212 (talk) 05:51, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

As Tony 1212 correctly states, the -odes termination is usually masculine — unless the author treated it as feminine in the original publication — as is in the present case. See also Nakamura, Takeyuki, Wesley Bicha & Toyohei Saigusa. 2019. Systematic Study of the Short-faced Scorpionfly Genus Panorpodes M‘Lachlan with Descriptions of Seven New Species (Mecoptera: Panorpodidae). Japanese Journal of Systematic Entomology 25(1): 19–38. who recently described Panorpodes dimorpha, Panorpodes fasciata, Panorpodes gilva and Panorpodes subtropica - all feminine (see here). Therefore Panorpodes paradoxa is the valid name and Panorpodes paradoxus is a synonym. Mariusm (talk) 07:44, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

A synonym or an orth. var.? --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:32, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Or nom. illeg.? Andyboorman (talk) 19:57, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
It's not a relevant distinction under either codes, as orthographic variants as a concept are nonexistent (validating it kinda goes against the idea that every taxon has only the one valid/correct name, after all!). If it's an orthographic variant, then under ICZN, it's a "subsequent spelling" and not even an available name so technically can't even qualify as a synonym. I can't tell from the code whether a wrongly-gendered name is considered a subsequent spelling or a subsequent grammatical error (both, by the rules of nomenclature, are to be ignored anyway). Circeus (talk) 20:13, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
This is not entirely true under the current botanical Code, as Art. 60.7 permits optional use of the diaresis. This allows for variations in orthography which are sanctioned by the Code. There are variations described in the Code that are not described as errors or things "to be corrected". --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:13, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
It's an incorrectly formed name (I would just call it a subsequent misspelling) which is, however, prevalent in the literature; so even if it has no standing in nomenclature it is worth an entry/cross reference for indexing/name resolving purposes (in my view...) Tony 1212 (talk) 04:40, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
See my modification of Panorpodes paradoxa Mariusm (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Looks fine to me, BTW, no source is cited for the claimed synonomy of the other species names listed - would be useful I think - my recollection is that most/all of them are treated as valid in Penney & Byers, Check-List of the Mecoptera of the World, but maybe there is a more recent source... Tony 1212 (talk) 19:15, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks (AndyboormanCirceusEncycloPeteyKorgMariusmTony 1212) for all of your comments and edits! Lastly, do you happen to know which ones of the many Navases and Miyakes that are authors of the synonyms? At the moment all of the links point to author disambiguation pages. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 18:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC).
Longinos Navás Ferrer (we have him as Longinos Navás, but I've also seen him referred to as "Longin Navas") and Tsunekata Miyake (I had to double check that spelling: it is not "Tsunetaka"). Byers, J. Kansas Entomol. Soc. 40(4):576. JSTOR. Circeus (talk) 19:09, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
@Circeus: Thank you very much. I've created the Tsunekata Miyake author page and updated the Panorpodes paradoxa taxon page according to your new information. –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC).

IOC 9.2 is in the air[edit]

Attention bird editors, the changes of 9.2 updates are published. I already took care of all the neotropical related changes. There are a lot out of there and I have no time (neither knowledge) to edit. Good luck! --Hector Bottai (talk) 21:28, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

ItWikiCon 2019 - Call for submissions[edit]

Hi, I would like to point out that the submissions are open for the sessions of the ItWikiCon 2019 that will take place in Rome from 15 to 17 November. The reference page is as usual the one of the proposals, in which you can either add ideas on what you would like to see in this edition, or make a proposal of a presentation/workshop/seminar/working group/etc. that you want to make, following the procedure through the inputbox or using directly the proposal model that we have prepared.

The deadline is 13 October 2019, the date from which the program committee will evaluate all proposals received, defining, in the days immediately following, the official program of ItWikiCon 2019.

For any clarification or suggestion please write in the proposal talk page or send an email to and if you plan to participate, don't forget to sign in the participants page.

On behalf of the programme committee, I would like to thank all those who would like to contribute to making ItWikiCon 2019 rich and diversified.--Ferdi2005 (talk) 13:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


Entomologists, please have a look here: Talk:Epilachnini#Subfamily Epilachninae. Regards, Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 21:28, 7 August 2019 (UTC).

This is yet another exemplar of the controversy between "standard classification" and "molecular classification". Coccinellidae harbors the standard coterie (Sasaji, 1968 and Kovár, 1996) against the molecular coterie (Ślipiński 2007). What WS lists in the Coccinellidae page is the molecular while Coccinellinae has 3 classification-options. Currently there's no "correct" Coccinellidae higher classification, and I propose modifying Coccinellidae and Epilachninae in the spirit of Coccinellinae. Mariusm (talk) 09:31, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Distributions and nadi template[edit]

There's a number of species which have {{nadi}} template distribution lists, where the format of the template (occupying the full with of the page) conflicts with images, leaving a blank whitespace gap until the bottom of the image is reached. Can the format of the {{nadi}} template be adjusted so it can coexist with images to its right, please? I don't know how to do this. - MPF (talk) 17:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

There's also number of species which have {{nadi}} template distribution lists, which also have distribution maps available on Commons. Maps are far better visually for humans and are far more accurate (not limited by political boundaries), but may have a potential future problem of not being machine-readable. If I wish to add a map to a species page, should I (a) delete the nadi data, or (b) <!-- hide it -->, or (c) retain it visible? With (a) I realise it would be annoying for contributors who have put work in on them, but (c) may leave pages too cluttered. Thoughts, please! - MPF (talk) 17:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

If a distribution map is available, I include it in the nadi section, so that both text and image are there. See Maireana aphylla for an example. --Thiotrix (talk) 18:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks! Hadn't thought of putting it in the nadi section (didn't know it was possible) - 19:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Reference citations - abbreviate, or in full?[edit]

When citing botanical references, many are abbreviated (e.g. Diagn. Pl. Orient.), following Brummit's standard abbreviations. However, google, BHL, and other sources for e-versions of these references often do not recognise the Brummit abbreviations; searches frequently only work with the full titles (e.g. Diagnoses Plantarum Orientalium) - particularly so with Biblioteca Digital del Real Jardin Botanico de Madrid where only the exact title (including any diacritics) gets a result. Getting the exact full title from the abbreviation can be surprisingly difficult, often needing a lot of guesswork or trial and error. Would it be a good idea to have a policy of giving citations in full? - MPF (talk) 17:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I often abbreviate a reference used as an example (i.e. in running text) and periodical titles that I link to ISSN/sources page. Although I disagree with editors as to the extant of the full title we ought to use, anything in the reference section should have complete bibliographical info.
I remember a statement published (I could swear) in Phytokeys and/or phytotaxa years ago about how they intended to encourage people to always fully cite the place of publications of names being discussed. In my experience they have completely failed in this regard, but I think it is important we should fully cite these places of publications, if only to make sure the citations are correct. We certainly can't just copy-paste them: I'm regularly having to make bibliographic corrections vs. the article I take the taxonomy from! Circeus (talk) 20:07, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
IPNI uses the accepted journal and author abbreviations in the name of a plant, as should WS. This site also allows a user to obtain the full name of these abbreviations, thus is a standard botanical resource and should be cited in the references. Our Reference Section must use the full names of both the authors, including initials for given names, and journals. I believe the Help Section is explicit on this matter. What is the problem? OK many older pages need updating, of course. Andyboorman (talk) 15:32, 14 August 2019 (UTC)


Template:Gill, 1884 is a red link, on Lycenchelys. Does anyone have details? A Google search finds lots of hits for "Lycenchelys Gill 1884", but I have found none that give details of the paper. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:08, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Google Scholar is your fiend. I plugged in "Gill, 1884", and the citation is on JSTOR. JSTOR will no longer pull up on my desktop, but it is possible to find it. Neferkheperre (talk) 13:19, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Nefer, it would be good if you could remember that google tailors its result to the user and there is no guarantee whatsoever other users will have anything like the same result (it certainly didn't give me any JSTOR results). Lycenchelys and Lycocara (substituting for Uronectes Günther, 1862 = Liparis Scopoli, 1777) are on page 180.

The exact citation is:

I updated the template {{Gill, 1884}}. Mariusm (talk) 15:53, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Just noting that since this is a genus of extant fishes, you will find more information than you can possibly desire in Eschmeyer's Online Catalog of the Fishes:
(quote) Lycenchelys Gill [T. N.] 1884:180 [Proceedings of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia v. 36; ref. 1725] Fem. Lycodes muraena Collett 1878. Type by subsequent designation. Proposed for "... Collett's second group which have the body elongate ..." but with no species mentioned. Type designated by Jordan 1885:124 [ref. 2385] (given as same in Jordan & Evermann 1898:2470 [ref. 2445]). Misspelled Lycenchelis in Zoological Record for 1923. •Valid as Lycenchelys Gill 1884 -- (Andriashev 1973:541 [ref. 7214], Lindberg & Krasyukova 1975:164 [ref. 7348], Gosztonyi 1977:217 [ref. 6103], Anderson 1984:578 [ref. 13634], Toyoshima in Masuda et al. 1984:306 [ref. 6441], Toyoshima 1985:145 [ref. 5722], Anderson 1988:86 [ref. 7304], Anderson 1990:258 [ref. 21695], Miller 1993:659 [ref. 21297], Anderson 1994:64 [ref. 21438], Anderson 1995:55 [ref. 21928], Fedorov 1995:126 [ref. 21957], Fedorov 1995:130 [ref. 21958], Mecklenburg et al. 2002:679 [ref. 25968], Anderson 2003:1741 [ref. 27106], Anderson & Fedorov 2004:14 [ref. 27603], Imamura et al. 2005:2 [ref. 28190], Shinohara & Anderson 2007:59 [ref. 29111], Møller & King 2007:586 [ref. 29259], Anderson & Møller 2007:175 [ref. 29401], Mecklenburg et al. 2011:129 [ref. 31212], Balushkin et al. 2011:978 [ref. 32449], Parin et al. 2014:397 [ref. 33547], Møller & Anderson 2015:1426 [ref. 34289], Mecklenburg et al. 2016:158 [ref. 34440], Robertson et al. 2017:93 [ref. 35676], Thiel et al. 2018:45 [ref. 35743]). Current status: Valid as Lycenchelys Gill 1884. Zoarcidae: Lycodinae.(/quote)
Searching IRMNG will also retrieve a microcitation for any/most animal genus name(s), not just fishes, namely: Cheers - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 06:53, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I updated the Lycenchelys page including the species list and the type species. Mariusm (talk) 16:05, 14 August 2019 (UTC)


Hello, does anyone know if the author of this 1835 article, and signed "Jos. G. Totten" is the same person as Q14624955? the dates correspond but the bibliographies available online do not mention any naturalistic activities. Otherwise does anyone know a bit more about this author? Christian Ferrer (talk) 17:23, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Part 1 of the article was published in 1834: [3]. Sadly it doesn't help with the author's ID. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:13, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it is Joseph Gilbert Totten. Some links: Biographical Etymology of Marine Organism Names (BEMON), 2400 Years of Malacology (PDF, see p. 1493), National Academy of Sciences, Biographical Memoirs (PDF, see p. 88). Korg (talk) 18:15, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
See [4] and [5]; both refer to an interest in conchology; [6] connects him to the conchology of Newport, USA. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:20, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Excellent work, thanks you dear colleagues! Christian Ferrer (talk) 18:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Axel Adolph Olsson vs Axel A. Olsson[edit]

I think they are the same person, aren't they? Christian Ferrer (talk) 11:24, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Some hard digging, but this seems to solve it: PDF. Alex Adolf Olsson. Wikidata was almost no help either. What is listed on both pages seems to be congruent. Neferkheperre (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Great, thanks you, I merged the both items in Wikidata, and created a redirect from one to another here. Christian Ferrer (talk) 17:59, 16 August 2019 (UTC)