User talk:Dendrofil

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Speedy deletion request[edit]

Hello. Please slow down a bit with your requests for speedy deletion, since they might have a bigger impact than you expect – especially for templates and categories. For instance take a look at Category: Candidates for speedy deletion. Now a whole bunch or proper, well formatted pages are listed as candidates for speedy deletion, but I'm sure that was not your intention? Best regards, Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 20:57, 4 March 2015 (UTC).[reply]

(Many of the problems seems to have been rectified now, so the category "Candidates for speedy deletion" is more or less empty – but still... :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 21:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC).[reply]
Hello, templates included in an article about different species create a single-entry into the category consisting of (title of the article name + territory). Excuse that litter the red category.
viz. Creating such categories is totally inappropriate, I think. --Dendrofil (talk) 21:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I do not have much experience with Wikispecies and procedures here, so I apologize for the strict requirement deletion. On the other hand, I'm glad you noticed that somebody called up and can rectify the situation.--Dendrofil (talk) 21:26, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The templates (and subsequently also categories) you refer to were all created by a single user here on Wikispecies. He is now blocked – which is sad really, because he was a very efficient and good contributor in many other ways. That said, we have a sturdy job fixing things up after him, and the matter has been discussed in the Wikispecies Village Pump; many times, and for several weeks… I totally agree with you that creating templates in this way is very inappropriate, but the thing is that if they gets created, they have to be deleted in a proper manner. Some of them include references to other Wikispecies templates and/or categories, and in some cases in such a way that if you mark one of them for speedy deletion, you also inadvertently mark all pages included in the sub-categories in the same way. In this particular case yes, the templates {{Aust}}, {{N.C.}} and {{N.Z.}} should be deleted, but marking them up for speedy deletion also includes all pages included in them. Thats a total of some 7,500 pages… And nearly all of them are in very good shape, except for the fact that they in some way or another include a reference to any of these templates. Hence the best way to go about it is to clean up the pages first, so that they carry no reference to the templates, and then delete the templates. That's a more or less impossible task for the rather few active users contributing to Wikispecies, but I'm currently working on creating a so called "bot" which can help us automate the process, at least to some degree.
As for noticing the problem as well as rectifying the situation, I did both – I was the one who "undid" your deletion requests. I'm an admin here at Wiktionary,(verify) and online more or less all the time. That makes it quite easy for me not only to fight off vandals, Internet trolls and commercial advertising, but also to swiftly correct any honest mistakes such as yours. Feel free to ask any further questions if you like! Either here or on my talk page, or on the Village Pump if it's a matter that concern Wikispecies as a whole. Most of us are primarily here to help and do good, you know! :-) Last but not least: thank you for your contributions, and welcome (back) to Wikispecies! –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Vernacular names[edit]

Hi Dendrofil - please note, we use Title case for consistency for vernacular names (as in a wikipedia page title). So please, don't change to lower case for Czech names, unless Czech does not use capital letters in titles or at the start of sentences (which I checked, is not true :-)). So:

and not

  • růže bedrníkolistá

Thanks! - MPF (talk) 14:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi MPF,

if you want to fix it for me, you're making it wrong. The spelling of standard Czech is regulated by the en:Institute of the Czech Language (ÚJČ) - see the relevant excerpt of the binding interpretation.

"...S malým písmenem se píšou rostlinné druhy: přeslička rolní, měsíček lékařský atp. Latinské názvy se píšou u prvního slova s velkým písmenem: Equisetum arvense = přeslička rolní, Calendula officinalis = měsíček lékařský. Stejný způsob psaní platí i o názvech živočichů: včela medonosná (lat. Apis mellifera), rys ostrovid (lat. Lynx lynx)."...[1]

The Czech wikipedia community does not take into account the correct spelling of the first character in the title of articles. The title of the article always starts with a capital letter. In addition, Wikipedia is probably not an authorized source for our articles. Wiktionary pays much more attention to correct spelling. Perhaps you could draw spell-correct shapes from here, but it's still not a good source. I prefer authority sources (Biolib), where the names are listed in the Czech language correctly. růže galská[2]

--Dendrofil (talk) 15:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But would you start a page (with apologies for any grammar errors inflicted by google translate!):
růže bedrníkolistá je růže původem z České republiky. růže bedrníkolistá se běžně vyskytuje ve většině oblastí.


Yes, really? That is not what I see! MPF (talk) 16:09, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with such a wording. Who wrote that? Of course, I saw the rose in the Czech Republic, specifically in South Moravia, but finding it there in nature is rare. It is nonsense at all that it occurs commonly and in most areas. / (Nesouhlasím s takovou formulací. Kdo to napsal? Tu růži jsem samozdřejmě v České republice konkrétně na jižní Moravě viděl, ale najít ji v tamtéž v přírodě je vzácné. Vůbec je nesmysl, že se vyskytuje běžně a ve většině oblastí.)Dendrofil (talk) 16:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You missed my point ;-) OK, so from Růže bedrníkolistá, paragraph 1, and paragraph 5:
  • Růže bedrníkolistá (Rosa pimpinellifolia) je nízký keř z čeledi růžovité, původní v české květeně.
  • Růže bedrníkolistá vyhledává výslunné, suché, křovinaté nebo travnaté stráně a lesostepní stanoviště a lesní lemy, často na spraších nebo na vápenci.
It does not say:
  • růže bedrníkolistá (Rosa pimpinellifolia) je nízký keř z čeledi růžovité, původní v české květeně.
  • růže bedrníkolistá vyhledává výslunné, suché, křovinaté nebo travnaté stráně a lesostepní stanoviště a lesní lemy, často na spraších nebo na vápenci.
Therefore, your changing the VN at wikispecies to lower case is not correct :-) MPF (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong. Each sentence in Czech begins with a capital letter. In English it is the same. The sentence you gave as an example:

"Růže bedrníkolistá vyhledává výslunné, suché, křovinaté nebo travnaté stráně a lesostepní stanoviště a lesní lemy, často na spraších nebo na vápenci.", I can also write correctly as follows: Suché, křovinaté nebo travnaté stráně a lesostepní stanoviště a lesní lemy, často na spraších nebo na vápenci vyhledává růže bedrníkolistá. The meaning is exactly the same. Czech does not have a fixed word order. I have stated the binding spelling procedure, including the source. What more do you want for proof? Dendrofil (talk) 18:22, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not relevant - when you start a sentence, you use a capital letter. "Růže bedrníkolistá" in a list on its own, all alone, is a self-contained new two-word sentence. Therefore a capital letter, except in languages that don't have capital letters at all, like Thai or Japanese. That's the whole point of the title case that wikispecies uses: it is a list of self-contained sentences, with each sentence containing one vernacular name in each language. When you have "růže bedrníkolistá" in the middle of a sentence, it does not mean that a new sentence also starts with the same. "růže bedrníkolistá"?. no. having it starting a new sentence with a lower case letter is not right. as you can see from these last four incorrectly capitalised sentences ;-) - MPF (talk) 20:36, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In Czech, a new sentence or sentence begins with a capital letter and ends with a period, question mark, or exclamation mark. Multiword names are not considered sentences.
And otherwise. Do you want or do you not want to understand the spelling of capital letters in Czech?--Dendrofil (talk) 14:29, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I looked for examples of Czech nature books online; you can see one I found here. Click on 'Prolistovat knihu' just below the image of the front cover. Scroll down through the sample pages shown to page 22 where it shows a page about one species. Look at the top of the page. 'Králíček obecný' (note: without a period, question mark, or exclamation mark!). Then in the body of the text, 'králíček obecný', several times. The point about the VN list here, it represents how the name is shown in the title, not in the middle of the text. Are you going to tell me that the authors of this book are wrong, too? - MPF (talk) 01:21, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The authors of the book write according to the binding spelling. Lowercase and uppercase letters are in place. The title in the title of the article begins with a capital letter. The title usually does not contain a period. (Compare the headlines in the daily press. However, they sometimes contain:!?)Dendrofil (talk) 15:04, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"The title in the title of the article begins with a capital letter" - exactly! Which is the same as the Wikispecies VN table, which specifies Title case to be used ... QED :-) MPF (talk) 15:48, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, only row headers or column headers can appear as a heading in a table. I don't think it's a classic table structure. It's more of a list. Depending on what you wrote, it would always have to have a capital letter and language in the cell to the left of the name, which you see is not true. The name of the language is spelled correctly, according to the spelling rules of the specific language. For code cs it is čeština and so on.--Dendrofil (talk) 16:32, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's a list, which uses title case for consistency. Please follow the consistency, and stop trying to make one exception for just one individual case: it just looks silly, and makes things difficult for everyone else. - MPF (talk) 10:44, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So the arguments have run out. Unfortunately, I cannot adapt the spelling rules to the herd's view. Contact the Institute for the Czech Language. In any case, I do not want to enter incorrect data, nor will I. Czech is definitely not the only language in which there is a spelling discrepancy in the writing of species in the VN section.--Dendrofil (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is nothing to do with the Czech Language Institute; it is clear they accept capitals for title case, and wikispecies' style policy is to use title case for the VN list. Case closed, if you'll pardon the pun. You just have to accept the specified in-house style guide, just like you do when writing for any other publication. - MPF (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I refuse to use a style that is wrong because I would be involved in creating spelling mistakes. This closes the case and ends my contribution.--Dendrofil (talk) 14:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. https://prirucka.ujc.cas.cz/?id=192
  2. https://www.biolib.cz/cz/taxon/id39751/